BR: Welcome to Squaring the Strange, where we apply critical thinking and evidence-based analysis to well everything from the simple to the strange to mysterious, to the mundane.

PR: Welcome back to Squaring the Strange, this is episode two we have made it through one so far. We are officially veterans of podcasting. Well we are but we’re veterans of squaring the strange now. Episode two that’s it. So anyway I thought we should touch in on a few things that have transpired since the first episode and things that we’ve got going on as far as the podcast goes. We do have a Patreon page up patreon.com forward slash squaring the strange. We do have a few different patron rewards based on the tier you’re on and we will be doing a little bit of tweaking of what those benefits are and things like that maybe add another tier or two to it. We’re just kind of learning as we go. We also have the website up squaringthestrange.com. You can stream the podcast from there. iTunes should be up in the next few days or so maybe by the time you’re listening to this you’ll be hearing us on iTunes.

BR: It’s like we’re talking to the future.

PR: Yeah it is always weird knowing that the delay between recording and releasing an episode it’s like so much stuff can happen.

BR: You’re probably listening to this in your jet car anyway to the helipod but yeah.

PR: Yeah so that’s where we’re at with that. We’ve got a Facebook up now. Our Twitter handle changed slightly. I know last week I said squaring the strange it’s actually squaring strange. We also are up on Instagram now at squaring the strange. What else? I think that’s right.

BR: We are just a multimedia, multi-platform force to be reckoned with. Yeah. What can I say?

PR: You get that LinkedIn page up soon and then hopefully we’ll have a…

BR: We got someone working on My Space right?

PR: Oh yeah yeah My Space. Yeah we’re gonna have a Yahoo profile pretty soon too. I want to thank our first patron. We very quickly got a patron. Amy I believe it’s pronounced “Frush Hour” Kelly. I cheated by looking on her Facebook so we really appreciate your sponsor level patronage so thank you for your support and again anyone else who wants to join in on that it’s patreon.com/squaringthestrange.

BR: So as usual it’s been a strange past few weeks. What have you seen recently that you’re skeptical of Pascual?

0:03:07
PR: This week it’s been a really interesting conversation on Facebook. I’m sure several of our listeners will be familiar with this story if not most. Is the fearless girl statue that was put up on Wall Street this week in response to the charging bull, the very famous charging bull statue made by a guy named Arturo DiModica who’s a Sicilian immigrant. The big news was that the statue went up. I think at least on my timeline the initial response was fairly positive. People thought it was a very strong statement and you know a lot of people liked it. I didn’t see a lot of controversy over it. But then the artist of the bull DiModica he actually is trying to get it taken down. He’s trying to essentially get the law enforced in terms of permitting to get it removed because he believes that it alters his art that the little girl is a direct alteration of the message that his art is supposed to be conveying and he has come out to kind of try to explain himself. He was talking about the bull representing the strength and will of America and you know being a little less about Wall Street and a little more about the American spirit. However when you put your art in the public sphere it’s going to be interpreted a million different ways and you really don’t have a way to control that. So there are a lot of people at least anecdotally speaking that seem that I know that seem to kind of look at the bull as being a little more representative of Wall Street and the aggressive capitalism and you know the things that some things that they see wrong with the country which means that you know that in that spirit the fearless girl seems to be very defiant of that.

BR: Well what is the situation on the permits you know.

PR: In reading up on it DiModica originally put that bull up without permits and eventually was granted one that allowed it to stay basically permanently I don’t think it’s actually worded that way but they’ve just allowed it to be there. You know and the girl contrary to I think some of the initial reports that it went down without a permit I think there was it was allowed to be installed and then the mayor granted it at least a year of status which you know maybe you could take it to court and fight that I’m not sure what the laws say on that but the mayor himself had granted it permission to be there.

BR: So it’s not like a guerrilla Banksy piece.

PR: Yeah no and you know the statue itself was actually put up by a company called State Street Global Advisors. There is an artist I don’t have her name in front of me.

0:05:49
The artist that did the statue was commissioned by that company who are I believe investment advisors and market managers.

BR: So basically Wall Street.

PR: Yeah so it was essentially commissioned by Wall Street and placed there by that. Now I’m not making any claims to you know whether it’s a publicity stunt or it’s advertising I mean we don’t have enough information to say whether or not it was you know I mean certainly I can see why people are going there with that but I you know in this in the spirit of things skeptical I can’t make the claim one way or the other you know it’s but it is worth noting a Wall Street company did commission that statue and did place it there.

BR: Yeah I don’t know I mean I follow some of that on social media I guess I don’t really have a strong opinion either way. The thing that jumped out at me was the the common assumptions about what both the bull and the girl meant. That was what intrigued me was you had on social media people like well the bull means you know it represents you know the bull markets and you know and patriotism and the American spirit and the girl represents you know defiance and girls and leadership and a list and and no it doesn’t. I mean these are these are symbols and symbols by definition mean whatever you want them to me. Yeah so it just I don’t know I mean it was just odd to me to see people asserting in in in their dialogues and arguments back and forth well you know this means this, like well no it can mean that or it might not mean that and you know sometimes a cigar just a cigar and even if even if the artist tells you what he or she wants it to mean as you said once it’s in the public sphere it’s it’s stripped of its meaning and each viewer you know attributes to and then what they will and so the the argument that at that this statue means X and this other statue means Y and therefore the user conflicting that’s that’s only your particular specific interpretation.

PR: Yeah exactly art is subjective by nature I’ve written countless songs and there have been times that a meaning a lyrical meaning has been taken from a song I’ve done that maybe was just not what I intended or even in some cases kind of taken almost offensively out of context and the thing is is that you know I don’t really have any grounds to stop people from thinking a certain way right I can’t police that and even if they respond to it by you know writing their own song in response to it or or you know or like Weird Al does, you know doing a parody of the song right I don’t really have a leg to stand on actually legally or artistically in my opinion so, DiModica you know he he believes he has a legal leg to stand on because he considers it infringing on his artwork but to me and this is just my opinion as an artist it’s a little I find it a little troublesome to to try to police the artistic reaction to an interpretation of your art because the girl represents an interpretation because to someone who doesn’t know anything about the bull they don’t you know they may not immediately look at that and say oh this is a fearless girl standing up in the face of rampant capitalism or something

BR: Right if you I mean if you’re if you’re an astrological bench you could think it’s referring to the zodiac the Taurus I mean sure you know it’s it’s there’s no one correct answer to it it’s it’s it’s an individual you know perception interpretation

PR: Totally and it appears to me that he seems to be more upset with the public perception of his art as he sees it you know I don’t I don’t claim to know how everyone thinks about this bull you know I will admit in my own life just sort of the way the bull’s been fed to me in pop culture I’ve actually never seen it in person in all my years going to New York because I’ve literally never gone to Wall Street I have no business down there, but.. I’ve never pulled the public at large about it but the way I’ve seen it in pop culture it seems like they kind of lean on the capitalistic side when it comes to using that imagery whenever you see shots of Wall Street almost always see the bull and it’s usually in the context of like greedy bankers and things like that which at least in the stuff I watch which you know for all I know there could be movies that are just totally positive about it and I just haven’t seen them that’s all that’s

BR: Well yeah I mean I I’ve seen the couple documentaries about about misdeeds in Wall Street I think Enron the Smartest People in the Room and a couple others and I could be I could be misremembering because it’s been a couple years but I’m pretty sure that at least one of them has a scene of the bull and that’s all represented that so again so it’s all context. I don’t know I mean again I I sort of see both sides to it I mean I I think that if I were a sculpture artist and I had something put up there I might be a little affronted that if know something that seemed to detract from it was was was put in place but on the other hand you know as you said you know it’s after after you install it and you get paid and you walk away it’s not yours anymore

PR: Exactly again I think there’s some context where I can absolutely sympathize with him I mean I understand how it feels to be misunderstood like that and I understand how it feels when people react to something you say and I think we’ve all experienced this to a degree maybe not in an artistic sense but you know maybe you said something on Facebook that was worded in a way that someone took it a completely different way and they got mad about it and they reacted very strongly to you and they were kind of defiant towards you and it was all because they misinterpreted you maybe you actually meant something completely opposite

BR: And often people misinterpreted intentionally I mean I’ve I’ve had that happen to me many times where somebody has an axe to grind and they’ll you know they’ll sort of tie themselves in not trying to try and interpret something I said in the most in the most vile way and it’s just you know whatever I just I just have to hope that that my readers and others will look at it for themselves and realize that that’s not it but

PR: Exactly and I think that in that situation it’s reasonable to expect that people will get where you’re coming from especially when you’re speaking to an audience that’s familiar with you and they understand the way you speak and the way you deliver your messages but with art and again especially in the public sphere you know you drop a piece of art down in the middle of a busy intersection you are releasing it into the wild, you know what happens to it from there on is largely out of your hands and from from a creative standpoint this has been an interesting part of the conversation is that some artists that I you know and I know a lot of artists and somebody who’s spoken to me kind of take the side of DiModica in being very you know well I mean he put his art out there with a message that got completely misconstrued and this statue is is is changing the context of his work and and that’s I do understand that argument and I think that there is something to be made of it if someone say spray painted something on the side of it or modified it or cut the horns off or or maybe even put the girl six inches from the nose of the bull to where you couldn’t see the bull without the girl in the picture but as it were I think the girl I don’t know exactly how far she is from it but in pictures it seems to be a good pretty good clip away at least 20 feet or so and you can see the individual statues on their own without them being part of the same piece necessarily and I think that just it could set kind of a weird precedence in my opinion to be going after someone for reacting to your art with art. Sure if you had put it into you know some kind of curated collection or you know we’re commissioned to do that piece on someone’s private property you know there may be some reason to think that you know he could say well don’t modify the meaning of this piece of art by putting you know things around it that take the context away you know

BR: Right well I mean I’d be and neither one of us know this or maybe you do I don’t but you know it’s not clear to me who chose we know who the artist of the the Defiant Girl is but we also know it was sponsored and paid for by the Wall Street corporation so you know I don’t know and maybe someone else does I don’t know who specifically chose you know we’re going to put this in this particular place it could have been the artist who said you know what this is this what this means and it has to be you know it’s it’s relevance is dependent upon its proximity to the bill or it could have been or the could it for all I know the artist could have said you can put this in Central Park I don’t care and it was in fact the the the the company that the commissioned it yeah they wanted it there maybe for publicity or whatever so I don’t know I mean there’s lots of moving parts on this.

PR: Definitely and you are and you’re correct I think in the spirit of the podcast and spirit of skepticism it is important to see the situation now if we just take the girl forget the whole situation surrounding the the statue and the placement but it is branded and it is sponsored by a Wall Street company. What’s important is that you know people have been pretty quick to jump on the the publicity stunt bandwagon and I can see why it’s very you know it’s pretty transparent you know but it’s important to know that you know that is not necessarily true I mean we you know for instance we…

BR: Someone has to pay for art. That doesn’t bother me that that I mean the fact that to my mind that the fact that a Wall Street company commissioned the art isn’t particularly relevant it’s it’s part of the mix but it’s it you know it could have been commissioned by you know the the Guggenheim I mean it you know it that doesn’t necessarily in the same way I would I would argue by analogy that just because you know let’s say a medical study is is sponsored and paid for by a particular drug company it’s easy for people like oh well you know you can’t believe it because you know look who paid for it but yeah but the fact is that just because they paid for it does not necessarily mean it’s invalid. It might be it might not be you have to you have to look at each individual thing so you can’t just smear with a brush well you know well of course you know that this study says that the drug works is paid for by Merck well of course you a rival drug company is not going to pay of course that’s that’s right naturally right right.

PR: So yeah it is tough and and I sympathize with the with people who who extrapolate that from from you know the data where when they see a drug company pay for a study or they see a corporation pay for an expression of art we all have it in us I think in this country because of kind of the the the rough go we’ve had of it you know regardless of where you are politically in general the 20th century had some very big ups and downs and the 21st century has been a pretty interesting ride so far economically and politically and and you know people are always looking for a motive you know and people are always looking for a reason why those things are happening so when they see you know fearless girl statue in front of a bull and and this sort of statement of of defiance or or you know whatever you take from it I mean it’s irrelevant, but then you see a corporate branding on it you know it does make people’s hearts sink a little but then on the other hand you know and for the record her name is Kristen Visbal who created the statue let’s say okay so I’m gonna come at it as as a creator here and I’ll say well I want to create a statue that’s in response to this bull the bull is on Wall Street what will it take to get it on Wall Street well I may have to go to a company on Wall Street to put put the money forth and maybe find a company who want to make a progressive statement you know I don’t know and

BR: and what’s wrong with that I mean presumably people want companies taking progressive stances

PR: Exactly so you know maybe you know maybe that’s what happened I’m not saying it is what happened I’m just saying that’s another possibility and maybe ensure anything that has your name on it is going to be a publicity sent to some degree whether it’s intentional or not and I’m certain the fact that there’s a plaque with this company’s name at the foot of the girl is you know not not it’s obviously not by accident

BR: Well right I mean you know frankly if we get enough supporters maybe you know squaring the strange could could install our own defiant skeptic somewhere maybe walk maybe skeptically looking at both the younger one the bull

PR: Exactly state street global advisors if you’re listening you could sponsor squaring the string or actually let’s say a state street global advisors present squaring the strange and we’ll make sure to cast a very skeptical eye on all of your competitors

BR: Ben and Pascual!

PR: Yeah I think that it’s it’s an interesting story that has been unfolding and and I personally think that it has been kind of a it’s been a good diversion for me I think the Facebook the social media sphere has been pretty bleak in the last several months and you know not to say it’s nice to see people frustrated over art but it’s nice to see us talking about something else. So Ben have you have you been skeptical of anything this week?

BR: Yes yeah in fact I was something jumped out at me a couple weeks ago and it was it was a story that was circulating first on Instagram and it was a mother in Charlotte South Carolina who posted a something that happened to her and her young two-year-old daughter at Target at the end of March, and it was later shared something like 200,000 times with the quarter million comments and it was it was sort of a typical you know viral outrage type story that there was sure that that you know they were all pretty familiar with and and so I’ll just I’ll just read to you a little bit of it just as far as at the stage so this is posted by one named Brandy Banner on March 31st it’s about her her her young daughter Sophia and she said that they could go to Target and she picked out a new doll and and when they had the conversation with the cashier and the woman this is a quote the woman gave me a puzzled look in turn to Sophia and asked are you sure this is the doll you want honey? Sophia finally found her voice and said yes please the cashier replied but she doesn’t look like you we have lots of other dolls look more like you and Banner says I immediately became angry but before I could say anything Sophia responded to with quote yes she does she’s a doctor like I’m a doctor and I’m a pretty girl and she’s a pretty girl see her pretty hair and see her and see her stethoscope thankfully the cashier decided to drop the issue and just answer oh that’s nice and so she she posted this on March 31st at 2:39 p.m. on Instagram and as you might expect the story went viral and it went all over the place and I took a quick look at online and there’s you know dozens of stories with headlines along  the lines of CNN said girl to defense her choice of doll to cashier white toddler her chose to get a black doll defense her decision toddler shuts down cashier who questioned black doll choice etc and you know I can see why this was a gain traction right probably in in in today’s climate of you know concerns about racism and and and also you know the concerns about dolls and yeah and women’s reactions to dolls and young girls and this and that. so it was it was really just bouncing over the place and and it was I again I saw it several times both on Facebook and on and other social media including Twitter and you know I was like yeah you know this is this is interesting and this is this is cool and then I was like well something didn’t really sound right about this um though something I just there was a little a little a little odd um so you know I I saw the story going everywhere and you know it’s it’s a it’s a it’s an evocative story right you have a young girl two years old who’s who’s being challenged by a cashier at target for her choice of dolls I mean it’s it’s exactly the sort of thing that people like and share and say you go girl and…

PR: And it’s inspiring and you know angering and all those it’s evocative

BR: Absolutely and and and it led to to of course lots of reaction as far as I can tell almost all positive yeah um just out again I I didn’t spend hours but I spent some time looking through and I would say 98 or 99 percent of the comments were just you know you know so proud of you and this is beautiful and I’m liking and sharing and stuff and the comments that were the the very rare negative comments were not complaining about the girl’s choice that the girl’s name is Sophie, I believe it they were raising uh some question as to whether the story was fully true. So again no one was saying of court you know this is ridiculous how could this white girl possibly buy a black doll no one was saying that right maybe there was some you know some neo-Nazi in his basement in Idaho there’s always one idiot there’s always one idiot right but but virtually everyone thought this was a wonderful beautiful story that was you know important to emphasize um and uh you know the more  I looked at the story I I sort of had some doubts about this um and so people are like well why would you be skeptical of this right? Well you know me. Mr. Skeptical man. So here’s here’s so where I was going with this and so um there were a couple things to point out one of them is that it was totally anonymous uh and you know again I don’t I didn’t I didn’t pick out the story to criticize or attack or analyze, I you know I I investigate and analyze stories like this all the time. I’ve done it for 16 18 years now it just so happened this one comes comes out at me and was was brought to my attention and I did see several things that raised a red flag for me one of them as I mentioned is that it was anonymous right we there was the the woman was talking about her was basically describing she and her her young daughters conversation with a a cashier target yeah um and she didn’t say which target this was, she didn’t name the cashier which would be I mean their names were on their tag um and so there was really no way to confirm any of this. And uh so again that that doesn’t mean the story’s fake let me be crystal clear about it, but you know the the anonymous source is always…

PR: It’s tricky it’s it always you always have to raise an eyebrow whether you agree with it or not it’s important to be skeptical not cynical.

BR: Exactly and so uh so you know the the thing that jumped out at me was a couple things one of them is that it’s precisely stories like these that it’s the one thing we want to believe that we need to be most cautious about. I mean we know this from confirmation bias psychological biases yes people are far more likely to to believe information that that confirms their belief that that sort of wants that they want to be true yeah right we’ll like and share and yes this is wonderful and things that contradict our beliefs and things that that that undermine what we think we’re far more likely to be skeptical of those. And uh and to be clear I I I have no I think it’s wonderful if this story is true that’s wonderful I that’s the that’s great this should be you know everyone should learn an important lesson from this. If the story is not fully true that’s also interesting and also worth looking into because again confirmation bias and so so as I said the it’s it’s it’s precisely stories like this that that are heartwarming there are heart tugging and emotional that that people need to be extra skeptical about. Again not not not not assuming its false but just just you know

PR: Treating it with, you know a reasonable amount of critical thinking.

BR: Exactly and so you know we have to be aware the stories that that fit our common themes and tropes and we see this lot in folklore for example this is this is one of the things we see in urban legends. urban legends are full of these these themes these these stories that that jump out and you know everything from you know the theme of the missing wisdom right that that’s what makes them so popular that that’s why people love and circulate in urban legends and often we we repeat them critically because hey did you hear about my cousins boyfriends you know gardener who you know she yeah we we get these all the time and so in this case one thing that jumped out at me was was the folkloric what were called motifs and these elements that that are sort of their common tropes there are things that we see all the time and we generally endorse and say okay this is part of the world. In this case one thing that jumped out at me not only from my back on in folklore but also just reading through the comments was you you repeatedly saw phrases like you know and the children shall lead us and you know and from the mouth of babes yeah right as they seem like you know well in the in you know that they haven’t been instilled in this in this horrible racism and you know they just speak their mind this this innocent wisdom and in fact there’s actually parallels to ghosts that be that’s one reason that the children are claimed to be more susceptible more likely to experience ghost reports the idea is that they there’s a there’s a naive innocence naive a tale about the world that that opens them up to being the being open to the possibilities of ghosts and spirits and you know so like before you know but before you know the bad evil world drummed their innocence out of them and they became cynical adults like us so so this is the sort of thing and so um so you know it’s it’s a part of this is what uh what this the urban legend debunking uh website Snopes calls “glurge” yeah yes what is gorge think of it as chicken soup with several cups of sugar mixed in it’s supposed to be a method of delivering a remedy for what ails you by adding sweetening to make the cure more appealing but the result is often more of sickly sweet concoction that induces that induces hypoglycemic fits in or in ordinary language gorge is the sending of inspirational and supposedly true tales, ones that often conceal much darker meanings than the uplifting moral lessons they report to offer or undermine their messages by fabricating and distorting historical fact in the guys of offering a quote true story so you know i’ve been fascinated by glurge for for for long long time it’s it’s the the the reason the glurge is so common on the internet is again it’s it’s it’s emotional right it tugs in our heartstrings we want it to be true like we i want this to be true damn it if this is true it should be true

PR: In the in the uh immortal words of of mulder i want to believe exactly

BR: Exactly and so you know and and this is this is again this is this is all over the place we see this you know the in stories of the the farmer that creates a perpetual motion machine in his barn right or the uh the the the teacher that’s tired of getting cold and then invents a homeopathic remedy and uh the colds you know that prevents colds or things like that. so so again partly because the there’s the part partly because the story is based on anonymous event uh with an honest person and partly because there are there are elements in this story that are directly identifiable in in glurge and urban legends it it merits taking closer look so uh-huh so to be clear i’m not saying the story is false i don’t know i i it could be totally true i don’t know i’m just i’m just giving you some reasons why i there’s some red flags for me. And of course you know skeptics have to ask for evidence that’s that’s what we do and in this case there is essentially no evidence. again she she refers to uh she she doesn’t uh reveal the identity of of the cashier she doesn’t i actually contacted her on facebook and asked her which which target  did this this occur and i got no response and i i’d seen other people doing that as well right the fact that it can’t it literally cannot be investigated is a problem um and and now i’ll keep in mind there could be legitimate reasons that she doesn’t want to reveal it’s it could be this totally did happen exactly is described and for example uh the the mother is concerned um about maybe uh shaming like you know like Jon Ronson wrote in his book you know So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed and that’s a valid concern i mean that that is that is entirely possible certainly that you know if she had identified yes this one was you know gretchen and so and so at this target store. so i mean again there are legitimate reasons to to maybe not reveal it on the other hand that’s that also prevents anybody from verifying the fact of the story uh the other thing is that you know the exchange seems especially staged or framed to me

PR: yeah that’s that’s a big one for you that you know whenever i see a story that kind of sets off my flags a little bit it’s how uh composed the story is they have very specific quoting…

BR: Verbatem quoting…

PR: that’s always a big one for me when i see very clear wording and when you’re speaking informally you you kind of just you throw bits and pieces of the conversation that are relevant in it’s never like you know person a here’s your line person b here’s your line and that that always raises a flag for me

BR: and that was exactly how this is portrayed and you can read you know people can people can read for themselves it’s right there it says you know direct quote this is what she said direct quote her response yeah and and again with all due respect i’ve been doing this for a long time i can’t remember there’s a reason my journalists you know take notes at the time and record things because even ten minutes later it’s it’s difficult to get direct quotes and it could be and look there’s a couple options you it could be that there actually was an exchange where this was the gist of the conversation where there was some comment it may have not been this precisely there was some comment may like you know well this this doll doesn’t look like you why would you know why would you want i mean i don’t know i wasn’t there you weren’t there we don’t have it happen or not but it’s possible there was some something that in the rough outlines resembles what’s depicted here but but keep in mind that that that’s not what it says. It doesn’t say we went to target the cashier made some comments my my two-year-old daughter stood up for herself were proud of her we went home. it does not say that it gives very specific verbatim quotes yeah yeah and that’s what raises my suspicions and i mean i’ve i’ve never had a cashier trying to talk me out of a purchase now i i had there have been a couple occasions where i’ve had like a salesman who i’m consulting like it’s like you know i’m trying to buy a tv this is these are my needs yeah right if i’m in an electronic store i’m somewhere else i say this you know can you i’m looking for advice um you know this is what i need you know can you help me pick the right product that’s i’ve had you know people steer me away from one project in the other in that case yeah but i’ve never just because just because it hasn’t happened to me it doesn’t mean it can’t have another people right but i’ve never gone to a cashier after selecting my purchases and had them trying to talk me out of buying them

PR: It’s a very strange premise to imagine that someone would question a two-year-old on the doll they chose i worked in retail when i was younger and you know 90% of the time i just didn’t give a crap i don’t care like you’re buying stuff i just want to go home

BR: right my my shift is over in 45 minutes

PR: yeah and and i and i the only time i may have ever made a comment about someone buying something is maybe something i like i’m like oh that’s a good record you know but that already kind of lowers the plausibility again not saying it’s impossible just seems a little odd that that conversation would even be sparked for any real reason especially because the person doesn’t know if they’re buying it for a friend or i mean..

BR: yeah i mean and i’ll talk a little bit more about her yeah she later said the mother later said that it well it wasn’t it was an older woman okay she said it was a female and the older one presumably indicating of an older generation that may have been sort of less socially aware about the things that and again that’s possible sure absolutely possible sure i mean this this entire thing is it possible absolutely yeah it’s entirely possible is it likely? i agree i agree you know and and i mean here’s another part that jumped out of me is that so far and i could be wrong to the last time i checked nobody else has come forward to corroborate her story nobody um and you might say well why would they well there’s couple of reasons one is that this is making national news and international news and people like their reflected glory yeah i’ve i’ve seen cases where you know something comes out in the in the news and all of a sudden it’s like well i was there too right we see this with with you know incidents like in the recent case of the United passenger yeah pay on airlines to let’s go suddenly you’ve got five or six other people who maybe at the time it may or may not have been a big story but certainly soon snowballed into one right and i was on that plane too and so they’re they’re being interviewed by the local reporter and so the point is that it’s a little odd to me that so far no one else as far as i’ve been able to tell has since it yeah i was i was there this is what she said yeah yeah i mean maybe it could have been you know she was the last customer in this one particular store closing it you know it was it was 10:59 yeah and no one else was in the store but seems more likely to me that if that especially if she’s she’s there with a two-year-old daughter who probably needs to be in bed at some point there were probably customers around there maybe in front maybe in background who might have and keep in mind that look if if i were behind this mother and her daughter and i heard that i would be outraged. i’d be like no i i was there and that pissed me off and this was offensive and you know. i would have definitely said something if i was there yeah yeah and so it’s odd to me that that no one else is sort of come forward, um and so anyway so let me just uh see we she posted a follow-up on April 2nd um and she says i’ll just people can find this it’s a Brandy Benner April 2nd at 630 p.m. from clover south Carolina and there’s there’s a there’s a thing talking about you know thank you so much there’s so much good in the world i feel the media is addicted to negativity we all tend to harden ourselves and assume the worst in others um and she says you know as i explained before the cashier was an elderly woman and i believe she was completely ignorant to what she was truly saying i’m not saying her ignorance makes it okay but it just proves her white privilege she says i’ve also had a few people accuse me of making the story up and doing it be clear i’m not doing that yeah i i’m not accusing her of making we’re not endorsing that view at all on the podcast yeah absolutely not i i’m just just just be crystal clear i’m not accusing her of anything i’m just giving some skeptical analysis she says um as i said i’ve had a few people accuse me of making the story up and that is just hilarious to me that that post was only supposed to be for my friends and family i had no reason to make make up an entertaining story for them uh but they asked me to share it and so i made it public now um i i’ve spent a lot of time researching hoaxes and and not just hoaxes but things that began as sort of innocent thing right sort of snowball all down to all of a sudden turns you prepared up to a balloon boy floating off in the atmosphere exactly and and i can tell you that that her defense closely resembles the pattern of many many of the fake stories that i’ve seen it absolutely does it’s just to a T, so for example you have um you have somebody who uh who puts something out there on on facebook assuming it’s just gonna be the friends and family um and you know not intending to go viral it’s just like hey is this is a beautiful story look what little Sophie did she stood up you know she’s you know helping to correct racism the world and of course people like well that’s wonderful this is beautiful let me share it for the mouth of babes and et cetera and she’s like okay whatever so she she she makes it public and before she knows it half million people are sharing and liking commenting on that

PR: CNN’s picking it up and yeah

BR: exactly it’s all over the place and so we’re going with this is that is it her description of what happened makes me even more think that this is this that there’s more of the story uh because that’s that’s precisely what often happens is that is that you know again i don’t know what happened maybe maybe the whole thing is made up maybe there was something that kind of occurred like that maybe i don’t know but but the fact that she says well you know this is just for my friends and then you know i thought that i would tell a lot of people share my wonderful story and then it went about yes that’s that’s how these things work and so um and it jumps to my mind uh it actually brings to mind a another incident that i wrote about um in 2016 where there was a very similar situation uh there was uh you remember the the the controversy over um uh Kaepernick the…

PR:  Yeah sure sure the kneeling during the national anthem…

BR: yes that’s right and um Kaepernick NFL player not to stand for the national anthem and again in both cases we have we have a social justice element to it yeah which isn’t i mean i think we all agree with that i mean i you know i certainly speaking for myself uh you know i i yes let’s let’s speak out against racism and sexism and and that’s absolutely but my point is that there there are common themes here, there’s reasons why these things go viral anyway what was interesting was that uh there was a uh there was a pastor uh that was accused of saying during a football game that anybody who doesn’t stand for the national anthem i don’t think he didn’t refer to Kaepernick but is clearly referencing that sure it should be shot

PR: i do i do remember that quote and uh strong statement

BR: that’s a very strong save it turns out he’s a pastor right and so and this again made outraged people are just this is absurd i mean this is and so uh i researched that a bit because it struck me like really a pastor said that people should be shot for maybe is it possible? so so here’s what happens why i investigated the case a bit in in September 2016 it turned out that um that uh when he was asked about it because of course it made national news and he’s being pilloried and criticized yeah i think he even got death threats and stuff and he said that he would be misquoted he said i did not say that people should be lined up and shot and and i think this is a high school football game of all places right hey everybody let’s let’s listen let’s light up and shoot right so he and the pastor he said uh he said no he said that you know that um that uh he was misquoted and and i looked at a dozen news stories and without exception the all cited a single source for the quote yeah one all these news stories were that there there were only source was one social media post. sound familiar? Right so as it turns out um it was a woman named um uh Crowley Whitfield um that had uh that had uh that had had basically quoted she claimed quoted uh the pastor saying this and once again uh no one else and i did some research on this no one else came forward corroborating her story at at a high school football game! if there’s there’s certainly hundreds maybe a thousand more people there right you would think that maybe at least one other person might have said wow the pastor saying people should be lined up and shot for not not standing for the anthem i’m i’m not i’m not down with that even if it is you know even this this this out yeah um and yet that didn’t happen uh and so that sort of started looking me into the into the case and trying to figure out well how exactly did this happen so so with it with a Kaepernick case from what for my analysis and i wrote this up and you can you can find my whole analysis on the on the Center For Inquiry blog I wrote about it on um September 15th 2016. um uh he had said uh the the pastor had said something that was that was that could have been misinterpreted uh you know he he didn’t say that he said he didn’t say that no one else said he did say that he did say something about he didn’t think it was good idea whatever i don’t know exactly what it was and into the state there’s no recording of it right so even even at this point in time no recording of it has emerged no one else has has come forward saying that there’s this one woman on one social media post that is quoting him yeah yeah and and and again so so you you look at it and you turn out the that you know that it turns out that in fact he was almost certainly misquoted he did not in fact say that um and this of course folds back into the case of the social media with with the little Sophie yeah um you know i is it possible this whole thing was accurately transcribed verbatim and that’s what the cashier said sure but but uh i i’m skeptical here and so i think the one of the keys here to understanding what happened is this sort of democratization of media because you have people and it’s not just in these cases this is across the board you have people who post things on social media they’re not journalists they’re not reporters they’re people like you and me who want to tell a story maybe totally true…

PR: Or maybe whatever bullshit comes off the top of their head? i’m guilty of that!

BR: right and we’ve all done at you know it’s that and so again keep in mind you the the the pattern here right yeah someone posts something on social media that may have some grain of truth but is not as as it’s portrayed to be in the headline and you know this gets quoted and you know and and and served up as an example of how horrible our society is right this is ridiculous you have a pastor claiming it a football game yeah that people should be shot from not standing yeah this is horrible you have this cashier a target who who can’t understand why a white childhood want a black doll. are these possible sure yeah are they likely and not so sure and certainly in the case of the of the pastor it’s almost certainly not true

PR: the important thing to remember here because I think there there may be a possibility some listeners are going to hear this and they’ll be like well you know who are you to question this woman and the you know racism is very much alive in this country and that is absolutely we aren’t making that statement radism is a major issue in this country and and but the thing is is that she’s dragging people into her story and that’s where you got to be careful like the pastor who ended up getting death threats he may have a really crappy opinion of people not standing for the anthem that may be worth discussing but you know  is he advocating for violence? most likely not because you know science from the point that way you know again not that the big bad corporation needs to be defended or anything but at the same time you know you’re dragging Target into this you’re dragging cashiers into this if it if it is not true you are damaging people by making people think that this is how this company does things and this is how people work there and obviously she has downplayed it a bit since then and tried to you say no she’s just old and you know but it’s like you already said it and the thing is is the media they’re just one and done and they never follow up on it you know it’s and so even if you know it did turn out that it was a fabrication which again I’m not claiming but if it did then you know the damage is already done she’s already accused someone of something a corporation gets dragged into it and and the media is not going to pick up on it no they never do

BR: and and look I mean and several news stories that I’ve seen uh said explicitly that they they reached out they reached out to target for for an answer I mean and and rightfully so I mean absolutely yeah I think no one’s trying to to smear Target I you know whatever but but just so my point is that several journalists uh because I’ve read several news stories they said we shout to Target for comment yeah and they’ve got no response back yeah is it because Target doesn’t want to be further engulfed in this maybe yeah is because Target’s like that didn’t happen and we don’t and they don’t want to say that publicly because then that’s like oh so you’re saying racism doesn’t no no no no all we’re saying is that that we cannot find evidence for this one particular thing that’s all that means um but you’re right I mean so that that that to my mind is one of the concerns that I saw with the how this the stories reported yeah it was on NBC it was on CTV news the Metro, Fox News global news uh CNN um all these stories are based on one, later two social media posts and that’s what concerns me yeah it’s it’s not that this woman posted this this heartwarming story about her daughter that that’s great that’s wonderful um hopefully it’s true although although hopefully it’s not true yeah I don’t want people to be like that no no no no this is this is the irony right yeah is that is that in a way we want it to be true we we want it to be true that the young girl is self-aware and smart enough to say well of course she’s a black doll and white what’s what what’s the what’s the yeah who doesn’t want that we don’t want

PR: the story of color blindness

BR: exactly and that’s wonderful and I hope that that’s a true story but of course if it’s true then that they’re you know if there’s a hero there has to be a villain in this case the the villain would be an elderly female Target cashier yeah um and and keep in mind the the other wrinkle here is that if by not identifying the woman and I’m not saying let’s assume the story is totally true yeah by not identifying at least privately to target the cashier then the cashier is not going to know that she did anything wrong. right I’m very aware and concerned about the the the the desire to name and shame on social media so I you know I I wouldn’t want this problem to be pilloried I mean whatever maybe she’s elderly maybe maybe she’s maybe she’s older generation this I don’t know so I you know I don’t want her named and shamed and pilloried on the other hand if she genuinely believes that and if no one if no one says you know by the way that that’s that’s that you know that’s not cool you know um then then she’s going to do it again. uh so you know that there’s there’s different moving parts of the story but anyway I guess the the part that I come back to is my concern is that there’s literally dozens of high profile news media the reported this story based on nothing more than Facebook posts. there’s no more that the that is the only source yeah and I’m that concerns me because uh because you know with with how easy it is to to to spread these sorts of things these these viral stories um I get it it’s it’s a sexy story it’s it’s emotional it’s glurge we I get that yeah but uh as if you’re CNN if you’re if you’re you know CTV if you’re if you’re a news source then presumably someone should be like is there any events this is true other than this one mother’s word and if there isn’t uh then you need to put that in the news to say you know well you know we’ve been unable to confirm I don’t just some sort of caveat but of course the problem is that as and we’re probably going to get hate me out here the problem is that even even raising that question as valid legitimate as it may be puts you in a bad light like well you’re a skeptic you’re saying like no no no

PR: yeah yeah the hard part about being a skeptic even referring to yourself as a skeptic because I find myself you know particularly because I’m not a professional skeptic like you um I I kind of have to define it you know pretty often when I explain to people that I’m a skeptic I know there’s kind of a common definition of that that means you’re you’re being you know a contrarian and you know but it’s it really just means that I try my best to approach every claim and every story with with you know some even-handedness and with social media it is so incredibly difficult to really get to the bottom of that stuff which is why you know I try my hardest to share things that have either been somewhat vetted or or when I share it I have kind of a big disclaimer at the top even that I’m kind of trying to steer away from now because sometimes I’ll share an article saying why I completely disagree with it and then people will share it from me agreeing with it and realizing that the reason I posted is because I thought it was wrong and I don’t mean to be promoting the information that I just doubted and uh but yeah so that’s definitely is as a thing we have to do and with the podcast I think you know I’d like to think most of the people listening are pretty hip to what skeptic means because it’s a skeptic podcast but you know I’m sure I’ll have a few friends who will come at me about this story too because it’s it’s a sensitive story it involves race it involves social justice…

BR: It involves gender – I mean this is this is a hot-button story again I personally don’t care if the story is true or not like as I have no vested interest I if this if this little girl is buying black dolls that’s wonderful that’s beautiful that’s great I’m all for that absolutely I don’t care, my question is is it true or not and you know and this is one of the things that I often see one of the failures and skepticism and even the skeptical community um is you know a lot of time skeptics will they’ll be selective right they’re like well I’m skeptical about some things and other things and you know my position is no you have to be skeptical about everything you can’t just you can’t have sacred cows you can’t have like well it’s okay to be skeptical about UFOs and ghosts but you know if there’s this if there’s this beautiful heartwarming story that I’m spraying around that has little or no evidence for it you can’t touch that yeah like no I’m sorry that’s not how this works sure you have to have the intellectual integrity to to to question everything and and and again I’m not I’m not claim I’m not saying anybody’s a liar I’m not saying there’s a hoax the total the story could be totally false it could be totally true my guess is it’s probably somewhere in the middle. I suspect that those those some some maybe the cashier made some comment that was maybe couldn’t be interpreted in some weird way and she post this then all of a sudden it went out and then by this point she you know maybe the mother knows that well okay this isn’t this is you know the headline is is is going beyond what I had originally wanted and so she’s like let’s just tamp this down and let it go but who knows and and and the fact is that we may never know. I mean if if no one ever contacts if no one ever gets an answer from Target and you know I mean I don’t think the two-year-old Sophie is gonna be doing an interview in five years they so did that really happen I mean so it but again it’s to my mind a big part of the story is just how it was almost laundered by the by by the news media and I don’t mean laundered in a in a negative way but in in a way that you know where maybe 15 years ago you know mainstream media like NBC or CBS or CNN would take a tabloid story from National Inquirer or wherever else that happens to be true and like well you know as reported in the Inquirer and then that that that launders the news right because it’s taking a source the may or may not be credible and reporting it like well you know we’re not saying this but this Facebook poster said right or you know you know we’re not endorsing this but the National Inquirer said and every now and then National Inquirer is right I mean they broke stories on on several sex scandals oh yeah yeah so I mean there there is you know there’s there’s sometimes a grain of truth to it and so that to me that to my mind is is part of the story that needs to be looked at again not so much whether this one particular story is 100% true or not I mean that’s that’s interesting but it’s really more a matter of how this story true or not is being reported on CNN and and globally with as its source two Facebook posts I mean that’s that people should be concerned about that.

PR: I agree I agree and and Brandy if in the very unlikely chance that you’re listening I believe your heart’s in the right place yes it sounds like you’re raising a wonderful little girl and..

BR: she’s adorable I just yeah and I think that’s wonderful and I hope she has you know yeah I got nothing but love for everybody here

PR: yeah so so you know but but I hope you know people understand why it’s important to be skeptical about these things especially when they grow legs in the media and and take off with with the level they have because again we’re there’s a lot of reporting on a story with very little data to pull from in very little data to test and you know again that’s that’s the importance of of being skeptical of even things that you want to be true.

BR: Here’s a piece of of a fan mail that I got I’ll just read it to you verbatim and the the parts that are in all caps I will just make louder, okay? The subject line is:  “Your head” with all caps subject line, “your head why is it in your ass? It is obvious you work for the DIS-information arm of little Lucifers the majority of what you spew is bias bullshit who is financing your trash? will be very DISappointing to you when reality comes home to roost get your ass out of our face PUKE exclamation points. Signed by informed.” So Pascual, what do think that means?

PR: I don’t, I’ve never… what continent is that language from?  Is it like Latin based or Greek?

BR: I think, I’m guessing I think is Latin based on, um, I recognize some of the words. The all caps are nice touch.

PR: Yeah puke I’m familiar with that, ass I’ve heard that a few times. So you know you know fairness I the hardest part for me is that those that string of words they don’t form a thing like there’s not an idea I mean I guess so okay that’s a criticism.

BR: Right well when the subject line is “Your head” then you’re assuming this is going to be related, you know, maybe a cognitive thing or maybe there’s some sort of skull fracture or issue and then it’s wise in your ass so the assumption by this this person I won’t tell you the last name that the first name is Devon. As for “it is obvious you work for the disinformation arm of a little Lucifer’s…” now this assumes that there are other arms of the Lucifers…

PR: how’s their insurance?

BR: it’s it’s not bad you know I get the retirement package, it’s uh who is financing your trash will be disappointed – just to be clear it’s DIS in caps in caps DIS appointed uh get get your ass out of our face puke—I love the “puke” and exclamation point, that just gilds the lily here—although I have to say there’s only one exclamation point.

PR: Yeah that’s that’s very reserved of of an angry letter writer  I use a minimum of two anytime I use the word puke. I feel like that because it gets but then again maybe he’s doing kind of a uh visual notes like yeah like a script or something so he’s like puke is the action so as I finish this sentence the act of vomiting.

BR: right right it could be could be a screenwriter

PR: I mean that’s some good comedy there. I think um the other um yeah wow I like the way he uses disappointing because it’s capital DIS and then appointing is another word it’s so it’s very clever.

BR: he’s really um using a very literal interpretation of disappointed as being the opposite of appointed right and yeah and which is it is at twice because the first one is disinformation yeah not disinformation is you are right right it is information yeah and this I’m doing the shatner and it is a point anyway so thank you Devon for that for that no really brilliant this is this is beautiful I will I will hold on to that sorry about the uh ass in your face um and uh hope you’re listening thank you yeah

PR: and um and if you have any interest in talking about being hired by little Lucifer just shoot us an email at squaringthestrangeatgmail.com and I’ll make sure Ben sends an application form because uh I’m probably gonna apply this week it sounds pretty cool

BR: little Lucifer’s that’s just so and and Lucifer is in lower case yeah which just you know again um

PR: it’s a very unassuming company and there’s just kind of humble

BR: it’s publicly traded I think it’s an it’s a nice little place but uh always hot coffee that’s all I care about very good all right thanks

PR: so what else do we have in the mail bag so I’ve got another uh another piece of fan mail uh as is the practice here uh the parts that are in all capitals will be read especially loud uh so I will begin with the subject line which is shame on you Benjamin! I I love that’s that’s that.

PR: You could stop right there and I’m 100 percent happy with this email I’ve never uh I’ve never shied away from enjoying just a big bold statement like that

BR: right I’m I almost didn’t need to open the email like shame on you Benjamin

PR: sounds like it disappointed your parents or something.

PR: to his credit i understand some of these sentences it’s yeah  i’m not sure what they’re getting at

BR: well it clearly the the thing i mean i think he encapsulates the theme in the subject line shame on you Benjamin yeah uh now you know why i should be shamed of of of you know obviously this is a response to an article wrote on the Ouija board yeah um and you know i i certainly have done research on the Ouija board and i’ve written about in my books um i’m not sure why that should cause me to be ashamed

PR: yeah i said some bad things about sorry once and got you know about a hundred emails so i mean i don’t know people take board games really seriously it starts with you know you criticizing the Ouija board and then you know he kind of laughs off your your opinion yeah the the capital h a capital h as just as his goal yeah and then maybe he’s maybe he’s a he’s a bond supervillain

PR: could be that could be jdc i feel like well the funny thing is is when he said jdc ethos said for like junior Deepak Chopra because the whole rest of this thing is like energy energy energy shapes and forms energy

BR: but uh to be fair there’s no quantum in there

PR: yeah he didn’t use the word quantum so that’s why he’s junior de pack chopra and not senior Depak Chopra because he doesn’t know how to spell quantum it’s a pretty amazing piece of uh email because he accuses you of having an ancient old mentality and then by the end of the email he’s criticizing all this high tech modern stuff that so it’s like i’m like trying to it’s like okay but which one is it is it an ancient because i think like if i’m not mistaken ancient mentalities tend to be the ones that that latch onto the spiritual and modern ones tend to be the ones that latch onto the technology a little more so i i feel like he might have mixed cross signals on that one a little

BR: i think he was confused by something going on here um although i have to say that it’s adorable he ends with thanks after after uh talking about how after the ha ha ha’s yeah how i need to learn things and and quit what you’re doing before you dig yourself deeper uh dig yourself a deeper hole i should be clear uh hole at w-h-o-l-e um so you know what we’ll see and we once again we have um we have uh not ren capitalization it pretty close um and uh if anything we have a lack of of punctuation yeah um there’s no multiple question marks is off is often the case not exclamation points oh there there there’s one or two but it’s not like you um yeah i mean uh you know uh wake up uh is the i that’s a

PR: i hear that term a lot and and very rarely is it followed up with uh some factual information so wake up sheeple or you know it’s like it’s always something but i digress i think um an interesting thing about this guy is he’s like you say you know everything about Ouija now let me fill a paragraph with stuff that has nothing to do with what i’m saying and then i’ll put the word Ouija the very end also all that again i will not provide you with anything

BR: no reputation no you know and here’s better information right like wake up uh thanks yeah sdc

PR: and in all seriousness i really highly suggested anyone if you disagree with something try to like you know say why and and and not just because you’re ignorant and you’re not paying attention that you know i mean i would be interested to see why he’s so invested in in in a board game for one and i will always call it a board game because it was invented as a board game this is not a secret there’s a harmless past time nobody infused it with with magical powers was it parker brothers or uh…

BR: Hasbro, but this is Ouija board it wasn’t even associated with anything occult until until uh the basically the the the 20s and 30s

PR: yeah i was gonna say it sounds like something that like once people like Alistair Crowley made their mark who were all of a on other yeah but yeah yeah it’s uh that’s a very interesting topic i’m sure we will cover that yeah well i’m excited too but that was a that was a great great letter and uh and please keep the fan mail coming uh it’s i’m always gonna assume it’s fan mail i mean yeah because you read it

BR: so yeah absolutely and and you know and so yeah but keep it coming always we’re always happy to uh to hear from listeners especially ones who are literate or semi literate in this case um and yeah you know uh feel free to uh i will i will say however that if you if you like a response um usually it’s best to to uh be a little more respectful i mean yeah you i you can you can begin with the subject line shame on you Benjamin that’s not gonna i’m not gonna delete it i mean definitely open it but after that you know bring hook me in you know get me excited about the project yeah take on it you know yeah yeah get me going there so…

PR: And that about wraps it up for us this week thank you for listening uh next week i’m really excited we’re gonna be covering psychics uh we’ve got a uh topic that’s gonna be based on an article that Ben just wrote this gonna be out in Skeptical Inquirer uh next month?

BR: yeah the next uh the next issue um it’s sort of a collection of uh of uh sort of roundup on psychics uh and uh their interaction with the law it’s interesting i’ve always been fascinated by the the the word the law and psychics intersect because there’s like the psychic world and there’s legal world and it’s sort of like you know one is very evidence-based and you know and solid and you know no messing around the other one is a lot more woo and so it’s it’s always interesting to me when when you have psychics who are arrested not only is it emotionally satisfying but it’s uh it they’re interesting lessons to be learned from uh from uh what happens when psychics meet the law

PR: uh sounds awesome so uh yeah stay tuned next week that’s gonna be our next episode um in the meantime you can come check us out at patreon.com forward slash squaring the strange uh if you’d like to become a patron there are a lot of little bonuses bonus episodes uh we may be giving you some extra bonus content there’s a bunch of tiers you can jump in on that from you know minimal to as much money as you want to throw at us it does cost a little bit of money to do this and uh we would definitely appreciate any support we can get and again i’d like to thank our very first patron Amy for uh her very generous patronage and we uh you are officially at the sponsor level and if you’re interested in what that means you can go over to our our patreon page and see the details also uh check us out at squaringthestrange.com we always have a new episode streaming there every week you can check us out on facebook at squaringthestrange twitter squaring the strange and instagram squaring the strange.

BR: All right and uh be sure to check us out on iTunes and please uh please leave us a rating uh and or give uh give a throw a couple bucks at us either way.

PR: Yeah and uh be sure to send your fan mail whether it’s in all caps or not to uh squaring the strange at gmail.com. All right uh see you next time thanks for listening. See ya.

1:15:16
Bye.