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0:00:00
Ben Radford: Welcome to Squaring the Strange, the podcast that examines all manner of the mysterious and the mundane through a critical lens. So let’s square the strange.

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0:00:10
BR: Welcome back to Squaring the Strange. This is Episode 106. I’m your co-host, Ben Radford. And with me is…

Celestia Ward: Celestia Ward. Hi, everybody. Hello, Ben.

BR: Hello there.

0:00:35
CW: Well, Ben, we are tackling a pretty heavy topic this week involving some things that you are, I know, are very close to. You have for years advocated for the human rights violations of those accused of witchcraft or valued for their so-called magical body parts in parts of Africa. I know you’ve done some fundraisers for Under the Same Sun, which is a group that helps albinos in danger in Africa and some other work. Why don’t you take it from here and tell us about your interest and your history with this topic and give our listeners an idea of the gravity of the guest that we have managed to talk to this week.

0:01:12
BR: Sure, absolutely. We’ve talked a little bit about this on the show before, but oftentimes the topics that we cover, they can tend to be a little frivolous. You know, it’s a homicidal dwarves that may or may not be 12-year-old girls. It’s bizarre UFO sightings, whatever else. And it’s easy to lose track of the fact that there can be very real consequences to a lot of these beliefs, a lot of these superstitious beliefs and the lack of critical thinking. When Americans hear the word witch hunt, they often think back to the witch trials in 1690s New England or maybe the witch persecutions in Europe 200 years ago. But in fact, as we’ve occasionally talked about on the show, they happen in today’s age. They happen in South America. They happen in Africa, Indonesia, and India and elsewhere. And I think it’s important to remind people of that, particularly Americans and Europeans and others who sort of go about their daily lives not in a social context in which witchcraft accusations are a real threat and you know, it’s easy to sort of focus on the skepticism in your own backyard But I’ve always tried to bring a more diverse voice to skepticism I co-founded a Spanish language magazine called Pensar which means to think with Alejandro Borgo in Buenos Aires Given talks in Lima, Peru and Sao Paulo, Brazil and when I edited skeptical briefs, I tried to bring in voices from all over the world. We even had a Native American skeptic, Noah Nez, who wrote a very good column for me. But some of the most important work is being done by our guest today, Leo Igwe. Leo is a human rights advocate and humanist in Nigeria. He has a master’s degree in philosophy and a doctorate in religious studies. He’s probably best known to skeptics for his decades of work in West Africa, primarily Nigeria, fighting witchcraft accusations and other dangerous superstitions. He’s a campaign director for WHRIN, the Witchcraft and Human Rights Information Network, and has worked with international agencies, including the United Nations. He’s a longtime friend of mine, and he’s written articles in Skeptic Inquirer and elsewhere. And again, his name is Leo Igwe, I-G-W-E. So today we’ll be talking about his work and some of the challenges he faces trying to bring skepticism and critical thinking to West Africa.

0:03:47
CW: Yes, yeah, Dr. Igwe was very kind to give us some time and just some audio mentions here. The internet that Leo was working with was at a hotel restaurant, so there is some ambient noise, but I was able to clean up a lot and it’s very listenable. Don’t worry, it’s not going to be much of a problem, but you’ll just notice some clinking and some background sounds going on and a little bit of a content warning. We are going to be hearing about some things that are rightfully described as atrocities from Dr. Igwe here. So sensitive listeners might want to bear that in mind as you listen. You’ll notice that Ben and I took a backseat for most of this discussion. I certainly did because I cannot even imagine dealing with the daily challenges of being in some place so steeped in that type of magical thinking where it’s a legitimate warning that you could be rounded up as a witch and face torture, murder, poisoning. Dr. Igwe actually just today, we recorded this like yesterday and Dr. Igwe today just forwarded a New York Times article about women in Gambia who were rounded up as witches by the ex-president there.

0:05:01
BR: Yes, I mean that’s a perfect example of how these things are, these are not dusty archaic traditions that have long since passed. They are very much in people’s lives in Africa and elsewhere in the world.

0:05:15
CW: Oh, and one last note, I know teachers sometimes use us, and we have in the past bleeped a lot of curse words. There is one curse word that pops up that I did not bleep because it would not have made any sense to do so. You’ll see what I mean when you get there.

BR: So without further ado, let’s hear from Dr. Leo Igwe.

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0:05:30
BR: Leo, are you with us?

0:05:43
Leo Igwe: Yes, I’m with you. Thank you so much for this opportunity for us to reconnect and I’m so excited to know that the campaign is still going on after some decades.

BR: Yes, we’ll just let listeners know he is in Nigeria, so the audio quality may not be the best, but we’re doing the best we can and we’re delighted to talk to Leo. I first met him probably 20 years ago, and I think we met at a conference or something, at a skeptical conference. So this is very cool to get a chance to talk to you about some of the work you’ve done on many fronts, but today we’re going to be focusing on your work against witchcraft accusations and witchcraft in Nigeria and West Africa.

0:06:36
CW: Leo, can you tell listeners who maybe have no idea what’s going on anywhere outside our own little bubble here, could you sort of set the stage and tell people what sort of challenges you face as a critical thinker and a humanist in Nigeria today?

0:06:56
LI: Well, there are challenges in all fronts and there are challenges at different levels and there are challenges at various aspects. There are challenges within the family, within the community, there are challenges when it comes to our interaction with the state, even within the region, and even at the UN level. So mine is a daunting task, but I knew from the beginning that it was going to be very hard. But I think it is a very important undertaking. The fact remains that there’s so much superstition and religious extremism in the society and this features a lot in people’s way of life and their interaction. Well, I was born in a rural community in Southeastern Nigeria, and we faced so much of these superstition-based abuses, including ritual killing, witchcraft accusation, and other related atrocities. And growing up, I never subscribed to these superstitious beliefs, and I felt that it could be a way to live a very fulfilled life by trying to do the little I can to address some of these abuses. Well, I spent the early years of my life in Catholic seminaries, training to be a priest. I studied philosophy, a little bit of theology, then started the humanist movement and used this as a platform to engage these issues. And we’ve made a little progress, but challenges remain because as time goes on there are different dimensions and apart from the traditional superstitions, we have the dimensions from Christianity, Islam, and all these are intersected in a way that makes fighting superstition a very daunting task because either it connects with people’s traditional belief, what they call maybe the indigenous African beliefs, or it has to do with Christianity or it has to do with Islam. dangerous to combat some of these superstitious beliefs. So that’s what we’ve been doing. We have made some progress. We have executed campaigns at different levels. In southeastern Nigeria we have executed campaigns against ritual killing. In Calabayan, Cross River State, we have also carried out a public enlightenment campaign against witchcraft accusation because there were cases where people were throwing away their children. We have cases where people are beating up their elderly parents. So these are some of the campaigns we have engaged and we have tried to make efforts to see how we can minimize these atrocities that are committed.

0:10:00
BR: That’s great work you’re doing. I’m so glad that you’re working on that. Can you tell us a little bit about how widespread witchcraft belief is in your region? Is it something that is very, very common, or is it only in sort of rural areas, or how would you characterize it?

0:10:17
LI: Well, I want to say from the start here that witchcraft is not an African word. Witchcraft is English, witchcraft is Western, and witchcraft is a level Western anthropologists use to describe a phenomenon which for me they thought they understood but at the end of the day it came up with their own conceptual and cultural baggage. spiritual or metaphysical means. People also believe that they can enhance their fortune using metaphysical or spiritual means. Now, that harm could be committed in ways that involve some rituals. Killing of some reptiles, killing of animals, making of some sacrifices here and there, that could make people to believe that they are harmed or their fortune is enhanced or destroyed. But there is also another form of where you can harm others through superstitious means, which is by somebody with psychical powers transforming himself or herself either into cockroach or cats or dogs or birds to cause harm on an enemy or on a target. This is what people call witchcraft. So what happens is that witchcraft is being used here to describe psychical harm that are committed. But sometimes this psychical harm involves some involved some material means or material properties. So the belief is pervasive and the belief intersects with local culture and the belief is also connected and reinforced by Christian and Islamic beliefs.

0:12:18
CW: So it’s highly entrenched. From all fronts you have people subscribing to this.

0:12:24
LI: Yeah, it is quite entrenched. describing to people? Yeah, it is quite entrenched. It is quite entrenched because it is medical. In other words, this kind of beliefs involves healing, involves the way people try to understand disease. It’s also social. It’s the way people try to make sense of their experiences, like marital difficulties, infertility, and other misfortunes or challenges that people face. It is a mechanism people use to make sense of their misfortune, especially when they cannot get any materially based explanation, or when they do not find a materially based explanation satisfactory.

0:13:12
CW: Well, sadly, that’s all too familiar in the human experience, but in Nigeria, where you are especially, it sounds like my admiration goes to you for fighting the fight there because it is so much more dangerous. Have you faced any danger personally or people who you have worked with? What sort of challenges on that front in terms of just your own personal safety do you have to worry about?

0:13:38
LI: Well, I think that as long as one is involved in trying to address this phenomenon, risk is an issue, safety is an issue, because there are people with vested interests in witch hunting. And these people are not just traditional healers. They are also church leaders. They are also religious leaders, they are also traditional leaders. And when you try to challenge this, when you try to bring these people to account, they feel threatened. Their power base feels threatened and of course they try to get back to you. So we have had running battles with pastors, with traditional healers and with other people who claim to be medicine men or women because sometimes their economy is based on witch hunting. Witch hunting is also the base of power. That’s what they use to assert power. And they feel threatened by those who try to bring them to account, by those who try to challenge what they’re doing, or by those who try to make them understand that they’re committing crimes when they are involved in witch hunting.

0:14:53
BR: So let me ask about that because you’re talking about people and witch hunters and others who are personally profiting from belief in witchcraft and magic and things like that and certainly from the religious areas as well. What about the authorities? What about the politicians and judges and policemen? What role do they play in this?

0:15:17
LI: Yeah, the thing is that it is important that we understand that judges and police officers are Nigerians. They are just occupying a position. And for them, many of these people, these positions are just like any other jobs. They are carrying out jobs based on the income that they can get from these. Not necessarily because they want to use that to enforce any enlightened principle as in this case. So many people think that being a judge is just like being a judge. It does not, it does not have anything to do with your personal beliefs. Look, I attended a workshop organized by UNICEF in Akwa Ibom State many years ago. And this judge who was at the panel, he said, look, because we were looking at the issue of child witchcraft, and the judge said, look, I don’t believe that children can be witches, but I know that there are witches and wizards. I told him, I said, oh, an NGO is organizing a section against witchcraft. They want to connect with the goal of the workshop. But at the end of the day, they have this very strong belief that people can harm others through magical means. So police officers are Nigerians, and many of them are pastors.

BR: Wow.

LI: Like our vice president, our vice president is a pastor. Okay, he’s a pastor in a Pentecostal church. Okay? So many of them are pastors, and for them, their beliefs, their religious beliefs even come first before what you call maybe state laws and all that. So we have a very complicated situation because many of the people we think that could enforce state laws and legislations that do not recognize witchcraft accusation, they try to sidetrack such issues and at the end of the day enforce whatever is, whatever they enforce based on their belief, not necessarily based on letters of the law.

0:17:29
BR: I can see how that would just be frustrating because you know, you you would look to authorities to enforce these, but in many cases, the authorities, they share those beliefs, and they have no particular vested interest in ending it.

0:17:44
LI: Yes.

0:17:45
CW: Wow.

0:17:46
LI: Yeah, yes. It has been very frustrating working with them, working with judges, working with police officers, working with, I mean, state actors. In Akwa Ibom State some years ago, I went to the state welfare officer. I saw some children who were abandoned, and I picked up these children. I took them and to the state welfare officer and the state welfare officer said, look, these children have confessed to being witches. I can’t keep them at the state custody. I told him, these are children of seven years and six years old. And I told the state welfare officer, what are you talking? He said, they have confessed. What did they confess? He asked one of them, what is your name in the witchcraft world? One said, Fawk. I told the woman, Fawk is English word. And that somebody taught this child what Fawk means. Do you see it? So, the woman just concluded right away. A child of six, seven years said the name in the witchcraft world. Why did you ask the child the name in the witchcraft world in the first place. Why didn’t you ask the child whether he needs some snacks or biscuits or whether he has some toys and all that. So we have people who are predisposed to use some of these traditional beliefs in their state activities and it makes it difficult. In fact, I was in a dilemma on that day because I didn’t know where to keep the child. I don’t have a private child care center and the woman rejected it I had to persuade her to keep this child at the state custody until we were able to make sense of where we could keep the child. So this is the kind of challenge where we are, the kind of challenges we are facing. But occasionally there are also some state workers who are also helpful and who are cooperating but they are in the minority, they are in the minority. So that is why it is really difficult in our work in terms of getting the partnership and cooperation of state institutions.

0:19:46
BR: Yeah, I’m struck by that and just the world view that that question even betrays, right? I mean, I can picture, I mean, not to draw too many parallels to anything that happened here in the States, but, you know, for example, in the 1980s and 90s, with the satanic panic, people that were having witchcraft and, you know, satanic accusations, you know, if you call the police officer to help sort out the situation about some claim, and the police officer replies, well, of course, you know, there are satanists around in the area.

0:20:20
LI: Yeah.

0:20:21
BR: Then, you know, I just, wow, their worldview is already compromised.

0:20:28
LI: Yeah, definitely, definitely. That’s a challenge. In fact, some years ago I was in Malawi and I got into conversation with a lady who was working with the UNICEF office in Malawi, in Lilongwe, and she was telling me, look, there’s something like witchcraft plane. And I was looking at her, I said, what are you talking? She said, yes, there’s witchcraft plane. That whether I believe it or not, that there’s witchcraft plane. I said, okay, because we were actually, I must tell you, we were actually in an aircraft. You know, I met her at the airport, we were flying to Johannesburg. So I said, okay, why are you going into Johannesburg with this kind of plane? Why not use the witchcraft plane? That will be cheaper for you.

0:21:09
CW: Oh my God.

0:21:10
LI: So people in the aircraft were laughing at us, you know, because this lady was just vehement and trying to tell me, look, there was something like witchcraft plane. I say, it’s nonsense. It’s nonsense. There’s nothing like witchcraft plane. You know, so this is the challenge. This is a lady, according to her, who was working with UNICEF. And UNICEF claims to be addressing the problem of witchcraft accusation in the region. That’s nonsense. That’s my frustration frustration with the UN agencies, the regional agencies, because they state these things on website, they release reports, but the people who are releasing these reports believe strongly in this. So how can you deliver what you don’t have? So it’s difficult to work with these agencies because even if they officially state that they are addressing the problem, The people, the individuals themselves, believe strongly, have beliefs, contrary to what they state. And I want to say, unless there is consistency, unless there is coherence, unless what UNICEF, UN bodies, African Commission on Human and People’s Rights, the Nigerian government, what they say in their constitution and what the officials do, unless those things cohere, we are not going to succeed. And the cracks will remain there. People will be suffering. Elderly people are being lynched constantly. They don’t get justice. Children are being thrown away. Nothing happens to them because there are no, there are no better to come out and enforce these laws, these legislations, the outcome of these reports. The people who are carrying them out, carrying them out for the sake of their jobs, not because they really buy into the underlying philosophy about you.

0:22:51
CW: Well, that’s how gosh, I again, I commend you for fighting what sounds like a very uphill battle against entrenched beliefs. Your story about the child being abandoned and giving a witch name just reminds it just reminds me of the human toll, the human price of these beliefs. And I had read something you wrote about the witch camps. And that was a new concept to me, the fact that just like there are refugee camps in places in Africa, there are camps of people who have been accused of witchcraft who cannot live safely in their villages or communities. Can you talk a little bit about what these camps are and what challenges the people there face and what challenges there are to even the camps existing?

0:23:38
LI: Yes, actually, if you ask me, these witch camps are a kind of a last resort to people who otherwise would have been killed. They are the kind of safe havens or refuge places because witchcraft accusation is a form of death sentence. And when they are pronounced, when they are made, you don’t have people to come to your rescue. Because anybody who comes to your rescue becomes a potential target of the witch hunters. So what happens in the north of Ghana, that is where I did my research, is that many people when they are accused go to special shrines. These are actually shrines. But these are shrines where if you get there as an accused person they could give you certain magical potions which they believe will remove the witchcraft powers whether they are real or imagined in whatever form. In other words, you get cleansed and you can no longer be harmful. Now, these are, that is how these camps are growing. So many people who are accused, who cannot return to their home, go to these places and they take refuge. And maybe some family members might come to assist them or they might get help from anywhere and from there they slowly begin to restart their lives. So that’s what we have in the north of Ghana. We also have one or two in Nigeria and I understand we have something like that also in Zambia and a few other places. And also in Burkina Faso. In Burkina Faso, these people that live in these camps, they call them Manjus Dam, Soul Eaters. Yes, so that is what that’s the kind of name they give them and they live in special camps in Burkina Faso. So they take refuge in you know at these places so because they don’t want to go home when they go home they could be killed in the night or they could be killed and they could be lynched at any moment by their accusers. So and because of this danger so that’s how these camps are growing in number, and the inmates, the people who are in these camps are growing, because people keep taking refuge in these places. Now, do you know the funny thing in Ghana is that the government wants to shut down these witch camps. Now, I have written and written again, I said, look, the witch camps, they are the consequence of witchcraft accusation. They’re not the cause. So they are providing safety net. We are non-existent. I went to the police stations. They don’t have asylum places. They don’t have safety places where these accused people could live. So if you are accused, you either go to these witch camps or you go back home and waiting to be killed any day by your accusers. So the government of Ghana is trying to shut down the camps. While they are reluctant to go to the communities and tackle witchcraft accusation and witchcraft accusers. Which is wrong. Which is doubly victimizing the people and exposing them to more dangers. Because if they get rid of witchcraft accusation, then the witchcrafts will disappear. Because there will be nobody fleeing to seek refuge in these places. So, but still the government wants to, you know, give itself this kind of image that there is something about the problem. Now, they now want to address the problem by victimizing people who have already been victimized in terms of trying to shut down the carousel. So that is the situation we have in Ghana. And I see hope that the government doesn’t go about that because witchcraft is not the problem. Witchcraft accusation is the problem. And victims of witchcraft, yes, they are victims. They are not the problem. It’s the accusers and the witch hunters that are the problem. They are the people to be tackled, not the people who are living in witch camps.

0:27:33
CW: Now, the way you describe the camps as a place of cleansing where the witchcraft can be removed, hopefully, possibly, reminds me that this is, this seems like two sides of a coin with the magical thinking. And you were talking earlier about healers and the way that people use superstition and magic as a way to describe things or change things in their life, bring themselves material success or health or something through means, if they don’t understand the material ways to do that, they reach out for a magical explanation. And so in the United States, there’s this belief that anything that is magical is witchcraft, but the mindset that you seem to describe is there seems to be good magic and evil magic and the evil magic is witchcraft and the good magic is just part of life. Can you talk a little bit about that whole mindset and as a critical thinker, do you try to attack both sides of that or do you just sort of leave the good magic alone if it’s doing a service?

0:28:43
LI: Well, the problem there is that like I said, let me just start from what you said now. It does service in one way and does great disservice in another way. So magical thinking is magical thinking and that is why I have issues with what they call the functionalist explanation, which is what has been used to explain away African witchcraft by Western anthropologists and their African scholar sympathizers. The thing there is that, oh yeah, they say, oh, witchcraft is good for social stability, stabilizing relationships. And at the end of the day, they looked at witchcraft accusation only from the accuser’s perspective, only from the perspective of the witch hunters, not from the perspective of the witch hunters, not from the perspective of the accused. So what I’m trying to say now is I’m trying to talk about the service it gives. We also have to talk about the disservice it gives. Yes. And let us also ask ourselves, what actually is this service? What is this service we get in it irrationally that we cannot provide rational remedies? comes and say, oh yeah, I rub this thing in the night and it makes me sleep well. Ask the person, what is the connection between that thing you are rubbing and sleeping well? Okay, why can’t you say, okay, this thing I’m rubbing, I mean it makes me feel good, yeah, it makes me feel good. That is it. And just try to tell us that it has some good powers. Yeah, because I think that at the end of the day, you can apply perfume on yourself. You can come out and you know, do something you know that doesn’t harm anybody and get on with your life. But as long as that thing constitutes any harm, then there’s a need to scrutinize it, even though you might think it does good in some level. Because we also have to rationally situate and place that good what we claim that it does. So which is very important. So what I’m saying here is this What is the benefit? What is that good service magical thinking is doing? I don’t even know That we cannot rationally explain or rationally provide something like when they talk about placebo. Yes, provide it and people can explain it But don’t tell me or there’s something magical power in the placebo in whatever medicine that we are given. We should have rational explanation for that service. And the minute we have the rational explanation, it will help us address the irrational, especially when the irrational has human costs, harms people, displaces people, disrupts relationships, cause people to lynch more than one another. So for me, good or bad service, anything that is magical thinking deserves to be scrutinized, deserves to be critically evaluated, and from there we can now make sense of how and what we do or how we go about it.

0:31:49
CW: That is a really wonderful parallel between placebo belief and magical thinking where if you think there’s something good it’s doing, you can just replace it with the rational and it’s a much better mindset and it’s safer.

0:32:04
BR: Yeah, I mean, one of the analogies I think of is when people talk about psychic mediums, people say, well, what does it really matter if Teresa Caputo or John Edward or Sylvia Brown couldn’t really talk to the dead as long as it makes people feel better? There’s lots of problems with that argument. Leo mentioned one of them, but part of it is just that they’re still lying to people and they’re exploiting people. They’re people who are vulnerable either because they’re grieving or they lost somebody or they’re vulnerable in the case of witchcraft accusations because they believe that witchcraft is around them and maybe harming them in their business or their health or whatever else and people take retribution for that.

0:32:51
LI: Yeah, but I also to add here that is a slippery slope. Those who say they talk to the dead, very soon the dead will start talking back or start replying, and very soon they start recording it, and before you know it, we have another scripture. We have another revelation. Yeah, filled with lies, fabrications, filled with baseless, unfounded claims. They say we should not question and that those who question it could be killed, as is the case in Nigeria. And they will turn these books in such that when you even tear it or they say you have desecrated it, and they place a value on it above your life. So it is a slippery slope. Don’t take us there. That is where I stand. Whether, oh, when you talk to the dead, it makes somebody feel good. The dead is dead. That is a truth. The dead is dead. Let’s get used to it, period. And I think that it is more enlightening for us to confront the situation that way than to allow something we have, you know, we have shown the way out through the door, to come in through the window under the guise that, oh yeah, somebody feels good about it. We have exited it. We have told it to go. Let it go. Because we actually gave it total consideration. We don’t want people who feel good talking talking to the dead should help to also let us know, do dead, are they in a position to effectively communicate. If they are not in the position, every other thing they are doing is just nonsense. Yes, it’s nonsense. And they grow up. We have to grow up, no matter what. We have to grow up because talking to the dead, making you feel good, will not make the dead to talk. Yes. So what is the outcome? Like I said, if we’re still going to reinforce the fact that, oh yeah, some ancestors are still in touch with us and there’s something they could do to affect our lives, and from there they control our lives, from there we start sacrificing animals, very soon we start sacrificing human beings. There, it continues.

0:35:18
BR: Leo I let me let me ask you uh since we’re talking about some of the harms in these beliefs let me ask you about the the Muti murders uh that’s that’s one of the several angles that I’ve written about and researched over the years and this there’s different forms of it as you know one of them is uh the persecution of albinos particularly in in east africa Tanzania, Kenya, and elsewhere, where people believe that body parts, particularly of albinos, are magical and are used in different spells and incantations. Does that sort of thing also happen in West Africa as well? And what can you talk about that?

0:35:57
LI: It does. The thing is this. The fact is just the sacrifice of living things, particularly let’s say animals and human beings, I believe to have spiritual powers. In other words, that’s why I was talking about the issue of people trying to do something that will bring you some material consequences in terms of material benefits, in terms of progress, richness, or some kind of good fortune. Okay? So now, it is not just when you sacrifice human beings. Now, it is not just every part of the human beings. The people who make the sacrifice, we recommend certain parts, or we recommend certain categories of human beings. So that, for instance, growing up in Nigeria, we were told to be afraid of what they call the head hunters, people who are looking for human heads. They cut off human heads, they take them to some traditional healer somewhere and they believe they could make some sacrifice that will make them rich or prosperous. And they go after people, I don’t know how to say it in the US, but we call them hunchback.

0:37:26
BR: Oh yeah, yeah.

0:37:27
LI: The people that hump at the back. So they go after these people, they slaughter them and remove that hump at the back, that swollen part of the body. And they believe that it contains something magical. Of course, we have the albinos, who are also attacked because they think that they look unusual. Because what many of these traditional healers do is to try to tell you to bring something that is not very common, yeah. Or to do something that is so risky, or so difficult to do. Rare birds, rare species, things like owl, or birds that do not come out very easily, you don’t see them often, they’ll tell you to go after these things. The same thing applies to human beings, who of course, maybe because of their complexion, like the issue of the dalbinos, or people with, the people are called a hunchback, and I understood recently, people with bowed head in Mozambique. Yeah, people who are somehow not in quotes considered normal, normally in quotes now. So these are people that they go for because they think that there is something magical in that. So they magicalize people who for one reason or the other do not fall into the picture of a normal person. And these are people who are hunted down because there is that belief. So the belief is not only that the bodies, body parts of albinos have powers, but human beings generally. So that people go for private parts, the breast, the head, they cut them off and they use it to make incantations. So that, we call them ritual killing in Nigeria. It’s still going on till date. And here, they attack all sorts of people. Now, look at the challenge. I went to a UN conference in Geneva and they said they were not interested in beliefs or thoughts and that they were only interested in action. I mean, I got demoralized. I want to tell you, I am so demoralized with the United Nations. Now, the United Nations is filled mainly with Europeans who don’t believe in these things, who know that ritual killing or killing of a baby, they know it’s nonsense, but they can’t come out to say it openly because they think that when they say it, they will accuse them of colonialism or racism, or of course, in one sense, they talk about Islamophobia and all that. So they refrain from coming out and telling people, hey, there is no connection between the body parts of albinos and money and wealth and fortune. Now, I ask them, if you are not interested in the thought and beliefs behind this, you are interested in the action, how long are you gonna do this? How are you going to, what principle informs your action? So that’s the problem I have at the UN. I was so demoralized because the people there are not ready to come out. They say, oh yeah, you’re attacking people’s beliefs. We are attacking people, we have to attack beliefs that are being used to commit atrocities. When people tell you that they can make money using the body of albinos, tell them it is nonsense. There is no connection. You cannot make money. And I used to ask them, what kind of money will you want to make? Are you going to make the African money, the currencies are in thousands for one euro or for one dollar? If you want to make money, why not make it in euro or make it in dollars? Now, they just don’t have answers to provide telling you, you know, on the basis, you know, telling you in order to demonstrate that actually they can make money from these things. We have to challenge these underlying beliefs. We should not be afraid, people calling you racist or whatever you call it, colonialist and all that, because we look to United Nations for leadership. And if they cannot lead in telling us categorically, hey, there is no connection between money-making and the body parts of our being. I have not seen it anywhere. They are not ready to say it because they say, oh, yeah, we will be talking down on Africans, we will be saying something that undermines the culture and tradition of all people. They will say they reject something in one way. They will also admit and re-admit that in another. This is frustrating. This is annoying. This doesn’t help us. And look, why it is annoying is that there’s human cost. At that conference, one albino woman came, their hand was chopped off. I had to ask the albino woman, I said, why did they chop your hand off? She said, eh, because they believed that they could make money from it. I told, under the sun, the delegate that called, I said, look, you people have to categorically put this thing on your website. You can’t make money with the hand of albino, with the skin of albino, and all that. The same thing applies to the other United Nations agencies. But they will come and dance around with these things and tell you that they don’t want to offend the cultural sentiments, the traditional sentiments of Africans. They wine and dine. They go back and come back the next year. This is nonsense. People are dying daily. People are dying yearly as a result of this belief. Come out and categorically say what you mean. And this thing I’m saying, they know that very well. They know that there’s no basis for disbelief that the body of albinos can be used to make money. But they can’t say it. And I told them, if you can’t say it, why not hire me? Why not hire me? I want to say it. If you can’t say it, you can’t come out. Hire me. I will say it. So that is a problem we are having. So, but I am happy that at the end of the day, there are a few platforms now we are using, like of course, this podcast for the Center for Inquiry platform and many other skeptical and humanist platform where we can say this. But you see, the humanist skeptic movement, they are still not, you know, that we’re not just a very big movement as such. So we need to get this mainstream so that other sectors, other organizations will make this central part of their campaign. Because unless we come out boldly, just like they say HIV is, HIV causes AIDS. If you have HIV, if you don’t manage it, you will get AIDS. It’s important that we come out as anybody that says it, you say no. Because this is anybody that opposes it like Becky did at a point, he came under criticism. The same thing should apply when it comes to people who think that witches can kill or harm others or those who think that the bodies of our beings can be used to make money. Such people should be named and shamed. We should make it categorically clear that there are no basis, there’s no connection with this and unless we have done this, we have not started. We are just hypocrites. We are paying lip service to these things and lives are being lost on daily basis, on weekly basis, on yearly basis and we cannot continue this way.

0:44:03
BR: Wow.

0:44:04
CW: I don’t know how to say it any better. You have covered everything, Leo, and it’s very moving to hear your passion about this. Ben, you had mentioned one thing that does move the UN and many other geopolitical interests is the study of money. And obviously money is at the heart of why some of these superstitions pop up. They want to make money with the flesh of albino people.

0:44:29
BR: Yeah, let me ask you a quick question about that. I mean, that’s, you know, as Leo, as you’re pointing out, really, really eloquently. I mean, there’s so many angles into this. There’s, you know, there’s the taboos, there’s cultural taboos, there’s political taboos, there’s taboos against speaking the truth, which is frankly offensive to me and to critical thinkers out of fear of not respecting people’s beliefs when in fact those beliefs may be actually killing people. So I completely agree with everything you’re saying and I’m really, again, once again, I’m so grateful for the work that you’ve done there. Let me look at some of the witchcraft accusations from an economic perspective. A couple of years back I had read an interesting piece. There was a study about witchcraft and its role in the erosion of social capital, such as trust. And it was talking about how, particularly in sub-Saharan Africa, there was a negative association between the prevalence of witchcraft beliefs and many measures of trust. And the issue was that in social arrangements, you want to hire someone to build a house. You want to hire someone to do something. Communities need trust. They need to be able to trust each other to build organizations to to help communities and all this and The what the what this report was saying was that witchcraft? deeply undermines that trust because there’s you know accusations of concerns about somebody else trying to get ahead or somebody else trying to use witchcraft to to harm you or to improve themselves. And there was an article by Geri Tahaar in a book titled Imagining Evil, and she writes – I’ll just throw a real short quote. It says, Witchcraft as an ideology and as a practice is a developmental issue in the sense that it hampers economic progress as people afraid of being accused of practicing witchcraft refrain from any activity that may make them appear to be more successful in life than others. And that sort of gets back to the notion that if your neighbor is wealthy or they’re doing well, that they must have done some, there must be some ulterior reason, right? There must be black magic or there must be some reason behind that. Can you talk about that aspect of witchcraft.

LI: Yes. I use all these terminologies just to make sure that I don’t just pigeonhole everything into witchcraft, the concept of witchcraft. Yeah. So, yeah, because you could make some sacrifice and you can see the connection now between sacrifice of albino human parts and your progress. In other words, you have actually placated the gods or you have done something. They now return it with favor and the favor is that you are making progress. Now, if you make progress in a community, especially in rural communities or in any, even it could be in the urban, but there is this level. It has to do with the occult, okay? Any progress you make there is explained to be at the expense of somebody. Somebody’s life, somebody else’s progress. In fact, there is this notion in rural communities, even also in cities, because like I said, the demarcation between the rural and urban is fluid here. Because people, there’s that flow, constant flow back and forth, people from rural to urban areas. So people travel with their beliefs. So there’s always this notion that people can steal, spiritually steal other people’s talent or star. So that when somebody gets rich and all that, if the poor neighbors will say, ah, this guy must have stolen the stars. And sometimes they could personalize it. Now, when they personalize, when these people personalize the stealing of stars, then progress becomes an issue. Development becomes an issue, because development here is that people coming in, maybe to install certain amenities or build what they call modern houses with modern amenities. People will now start explaining it in terms of their stars stolen by the person who is making this progress. So in line with the finding, some people might refrain not to really put up a very magnificent structure in their villages so that neighbors will not think that he or she had stolen their stars or their talents. And, but some people can, could be defiant. They will go ahead and put up such structures. Now, what we are going, this one now I’m telling you happened in my own village, in Nbise in Southeastern Nigeria. So I’m just telling you something that happened just a few years ago. Now, I was told that, okay, that somebody’s house was burnt. They went and burnt and looted a magnificent house in the community. What happened? Some young people who were unemployed invited a priest and to come and pray because they said that they were not making progress. Because when you are not making progress and somebody’s making progress, you think that yeah that person is actually making progress at your own expense, and must qualify it. So, and when people magicalize their state of misfortune, they get very angry and in quote of course, irrational beliefs, irrational action, they are all connected. So, they can anything, they can kill. So, this priest came and pointed at a tree, a man planted in his compound. I said that some of the evil spirits were operating from that tree. So they went and cut down a man’s tree. So the man came back, he was very angry. So some of the youth went to confront him in his house. He shot one of them on the leg. Now they raised alarm and mobilized other youths in the community and they razed down the house. They burnt down everything and looted the whole place. Wow. And the house has not been rebuilt up to today. So a lot of people are afraid of going to villages and the rural communities to set up magnificent houses because they could think that oh yeah this person is coming, he will be using this to steal our stuff. Now a lot of people find it difficult also to go and maybe install something like pipe bomb water or electricity because if they install it and maybe there is an accident, people would say, oh yeah, he has used that thing to come and kill and make up for the money the person used to install it.

0:51:31
BR: Oh, so they could be, I hadn’t even thought about that. If something goes wrong with something they were associated with, that harms or kills somebody, they could be accused of witchcraft.

0:51:42
LI: Yes, that is it.

0:51:43
BR: Wow.

0:51:44
LI: So that is the problem. This is how the whole thing is so convoluted, complex in such a way that it’s causing and hampering development in rural areas. Even in urban areas, if people think that, oh yeah, somebody is opening a chain of stores, and it’s like, okay, how did this person make this money? Some people will say, oh yeah, the man must have buried some heads of children on the foundations because there’s always this belief that sometimes some people before they build some very big supermarkets or big apartment, they will go and behead people or use body parts and use that to build a foundation. So now, what happens is that people, if people associate you well with the occult, they could one day rise up and raze down the place. So that is a kind of situation where we’re living. And what happens is that if you try to intervene and say, hey, hey, hey, hey, this thing has nothing to do with magic. They will think that you’re a collaborator. They will think that you are part of gang. So, and that is why our work here is very dangerous in terms of how to intervene when it comes to witchcraft cases. And let me quickly tell you this before I continue. I went to a village in Benue State recently, and a doctor drew my attention to ongoing witch hunting in the communities. And there’s a group, they call them the night spirits. These are young people that take masks in the night and go and kill anybody who’s accused of witchcraft.

0:53:13
BR: These are like vigilante groups?

0:53:15
LI: A kind of vigilante group, yeah. So, connected with traditional healers and traditional witch hunters. So, what they do is that, so there was a particular case where they beat up this woman and the woman was rushed to a hospital. So, I met the doctor. The doctor invited me to visit. Now, I visited the doctor, but we couldn’t go to the community because the doctor was afraid that they could attack us. Okay, so we had to now invite some of the victims or some of the people who sympathize with the victims to come and tell us what’s going on. We have not been, I have not been able to visit the community until that. We are still looking for a way and a time it could be safe. So that when you go to these communities, where these people, which hunters have their power base, it is also difficult to tackle them. The police officers are there. They know what’s going on because they know that if some of these police stations, they don’t have the necessary amenities even to protect themselves. If they tackle them, they could come in the night and lynch and burn down the place and all that. So there is, we are in a very difficult situation, I must tell you. So, but it is only coming out with a categorical well-oiled campaign against irrationalism, witchcraft, and the intersection with the dominant religion Christianity and Islam because what we are seeing now is that some of them now are taking place under the umbrella of Christianity or Islam because the malams, the mams, the pastors are taking over from some of these traditional healers. In fact, they are the vicious witch hunters we see today. And when you try to tackle them, they say, oh, yeah, you are against Christianity, you are against Islam, which is another form of death sentence for you in terms of politics, in terms of career, in terms of business. So you can see where we are. If you try to go against the witch hunters, they could frame you and you may not be able to get a job or you could be sacked. Your business cannot thrive. Meanwhile, the work that are doing, the accusations that are doing also is undermining the business of the people and also undermining the development of the community. So you can see the web of problem, the intersection in terms of dangers and risks and harm, you know, connected with the whole belief. And that is why I say, anybody who tells you, oh, this is good magic, this is bad magic, nonsense. Good magic is good nonsense, and whether good or bad, nonsense is nonsense.

0:55:48
CW: Yeah, well said, and you’ve done a very wonderful job explaining all the intricacies, social and economic, and how such belief systems really bring this added risk to any success which holds communities back in multiple ways, I mean from public health to economic development to personal safety. What are the ways that the average, I mean we broadcast from our little communities in the United States and we are involved in skeptical organizations here that have vastly different focuses on things that are going on in the United States, but what can the average skeptic in America do that would lend your cause some help? Can we write to the UN? What can we do to change the minds of people who need to be educated on this?

0:56:41
LI: You see, the greatest thing I think we can do today, like now, of course, I don’t have a podcast, I don’t have a website, I don’t have some of these facilities because sometimes maintaining them and having them also, they kind of a drain on your limited resources. I think that if we can help amplify the rational voice from this part of the world, it could help us a lot. But I mean, of course, getting this out there, okay? Because sometimes, you know, I was, like I said, I get frustrated when I get to UN and I go to UN maybe once in three, four years because you have to go through visa processing, go to all sorts of things. Now, it’s easier for our friends, maybe in Europe and who understand this, to take it up. Take it up with the necessary agencies. Highlight it like, we are having this podcast. I would like other organizations to give us platform to explain this. Explain this the way it is. Because I want to tell you that sometimes the people over the stairs, they don’t actually say how bad. That’s why sometimes when I make presentation they say I’m very angry. I’m not angry. People are dying. When people are dying, you want me to be happy. You want me to come and say, hey, hello. I’m happy here. I am not happy. I’m sorry. So, what there is this? They try to sweet talk what should be presented as atrocity. Yes. In one of the cases I investigated recently, a man who was accused, they went in the night, kidnapped him, put a rope on his neck, and pulled him on the ground till he died. This happened in Nigeria. Okay? So, and these are only the few that get to my information. And I’m just one person here. So a lot is going on and is not highlighted. So I would like a situation where our colleagues, our friends out there help in raising these voices, getting across our message, lobbying the United Nations. The UN is still reluctant to pass a resolution against witchcraft accusation. Yes, the UN is still reluctant. Passing a resolution.

BR: In 2019 they still can’t get that sorted out. Unbelievable.

LI: Yes, the UN has released reports. UNICEF has released a report since 2010 highlighting the scale of child witchcraft accusation and the harm that causes in Congo, in Nigeria, and in many other places. The UN Refugee Agency has released reports but the UN is reluctant to pass in a resolution and the efforts are still being made right now they said oh yeah there are concerns from the Pagan community. Harmful practices associated with witchcraft I know is what Pagans are not in support of that. So what is stopping that? Why should we not go ahead with it? So I think that there will be another attempt in March to see if the UN could pass a resolution. And I’m saying here, the UN, if you can’t pass a resolution, then why did you write the reports? What are those reports doing there? Why can’t you take these simple steps? These resolutions are not very abundant documents, but they are statements that you send strong message to different countries so that they can step up their efforts. So, these are what skeptic groups around the world could do, and this is what skeptic activists could do for us. Help us in trying to raise the profile of this campaign and let people understand that witchcraft, witch hunting is an atrocious practice and the time has come for us to put this behind us. If Europe puts that behind itself as it as the history says 300 years ago, over 300 years ago, why are we still dilly-dallying on that now? Why can’t we put it behind us? Is there anything that the UN has seen beneficial in quotes. Europe did not see 300 years ago and said goodbye to that. So this is it. I really cannot understand. So let UN do their bit. So that African region, Asian region, and all the regions where we have this problem, they do their bit. One more thing I also want to emphasize. We have another vicious form or a vicious trend in witch hunting, which is coming from Africans who are living either in Europe or in the United States. Many of them who get there, who cannot have children, have problem having children, they’re infertile or they cannot conceive or they’re having other challenges. They blame their relatives at home in Africa here to be responsible. Already, Peter Gishire talked about African witchcraft going global. Yes, it has gone global. Now, witchcraft accusation has gone global. Now, victimization of alleged witches has also become a transnational operation. So it is important for us to keep highlighting this. Many Africans who go to the United States, who face difficulties either in adapting to life there or because of documents or because of how they arrive in terms of trying to get all the necessary documents to live there peacefully. When they get challenges, they blame people at home. Some of them, they claim that some of them have traveled there spiritually to stop a process that could have benefited them. This is what we are going on. So what we have is a global issue and nobody should think that yes it does not affect us. Yeah it’s affecting Africans out there. It’s a global issue and we should all rise up and do our bit to tackle it globally.

1:03:03
BR: Absolutely, absolutely. How can people get a hold of you? How can people help if they’re people that either want to sign petitions or donate money or maybe we have listeners who design websites and could maybe offer to set something up for you. How can people help?

1:03:19
LI: Well, what I say is this. There are so many layers of help people can give us. Like I said, they can give us help by helping us get this message out there. Of course, we can raise money because the more money we have, the more we can do, the more interventions we can carry out because sometimes it’s difficult, in quotes, to raise money locally. The situation is hostile. The establishment is leaning towards the accusers, not towards the accused. So it is really tough. So of course we will welcome donations via organizations and these donations could be channeled through, I mean, all the well-known skeptic communities. At the moment, what I’m saying is that those who cannot donate through their own organizations to a special fund could also go to the Witchcraft Human Rights Information Network. It’s an NGO that right now we are in the process, we are discussing, I’m discussing a role as a campaigns director. So they could go toWhrin.org. Whrin is W-H-R-I-N.org. They could go to Whrin.org, it’s a website, and they could make donations. Because that is the organization I can tell you today that has this categorical stand to combat human rights abuses based on witchcraft beliefs. So this is where they can go and make donations. If they cannot make their donations through a special fund of their own organizations, they can go to WHRIN, Witchcraft Human Rights Information Network, their website, and make donations to this course.

1:05:06
CW: Thank you for giving us the information on where listeners can send a donation easily and quickly and help the process of getting the word out and fighting the, as you call them, atrocities. Is there anything else you’d like to say to listeners and people out there before we let you go?

1:05:24
LI: Witchcraft accusation is just one of those consequences we have as a world, as a generation that is still not doing enough in terms of promoting critical thinking. And the time has come for us to step up our efforts to raise awareness and promote the values of critical thinking in all areas of human endeavor. And we cannot achieve this if we punish those who criticize religious, cultural, or traditional beliefs. If we label them racist, there is no basis to call racist a person who criticizes, who in a civil way debates religious, cultural and traditional issues. and traditional issues. There is no basis to call the person an Islamophobe or accuse the person of Islamophobia. These are labels we have used to shut down the critical voice. These are labels we have used to reinforce irrational beliefs. But from what I have told you today, people are dying in their millions, people are suffering in their millions. And I want to say, if we continue to penalize critical debates, critical evaluation of religious and traditional claims, we are adding an abetting, we are contributing directly and indirectly to these atrocities. So I will say this, let us once again renew our commitment to promoting critical thinking in all areas of human endeavor, religious, cultural, and traditional.

1:07:26
BR: Thank you. Very good. So Leo, if people want to contact you directly, for example, if people want to reach out to you either Facebook or Twitter or email or something to maybe arrange interviews or do something else, how should they get a hold of you?

1:07:39
LI: Well, they can get a hold of me via email. I like that my email address, I call it nskepticleo at yahoo.com. That’s one. Or leo at Whrin.org. Whrin is spelled W-H-R-I-N.org. So they can reach me through these addresses and yeah we can we can arrange an interview or get something done. It is very important that we continue to do our bit and our best to keep watch on the society and make sure that we don’t just hand over the of the future of a generation of our world to witch hunters, to religious fanatics.

1:08:31
BR: Well, I just want to personally thank you for all the work you’ve done. I’m proud to be your friend and your colleague in this. It’s easy to sort of just think of skepticism as being this abstract thing that we do in promoting critical thinking. But, you know, when we hear stories like yours, we realize that in other places around the world people are literally dying and being grievously injured financially, socially, personally by these things. I’m just, I’m, the sort of skepticism that you do in your activism is really an inspiration to me and others, and I thank you.

1:09:11
CW: Yes, we can’t thank you enough for your valuable time and your bravery in this fight. Thank you.

1:09:17
LI: Well, I think I should also thank you people for the transnational interest because very often I ask myself, people who live in other parts of the world, what’s their business? It’s difficult for them to understand what’s going on here. So that’s why sometimes I don’t actually get so frustrated because I know that people are shaped by their world so occasionally when I get people from other regions of the world try to provide a platform to showcase or highlight what we’re doing I’m excited and I hope we can have more of such connections because I think that that’s a very robust campaign against superstition or irrationalism-based atrocities.

(MUSIC)

CW: Well, I can’t thank you enough, Ben, for bringing Leo to our humble little podcast here and letting him explain his challenges and also what people can do. Now, Leo’s accent might have given some folks a little bit of trouble. I know I had to listen a couple of times to make sure I was getting the email addresses right. So let me read those off to you so you can take a note down here. His email is nskepticleo at yahoo.com. That is N like Nigeria, S-K-E-P-T-I-C-L-E-O at yahoo.com. And also his W-H-R-I-N email is leoleo at W-H-R-I-N.org. And his Twitter handle, if you want to follow him on Twitter, is at Leo Igwe L-E-O-I-G-W-E. You know, and I do encourage people to follow him and follow the work that he does. If you can, please support him in some way and just spread the word. So let’s try to break out of some of the insular tendencies skepticism yeah and if if anybody’s looking for a meaningful holiday gift for somebody this time of year are you can always donate in somebody’s name to uh… the witchcraft in human rights information network again that is w h are i n dot org there’s a nice easy donate button there and you can read more about Leo and his associates and what they’re doing now next week we uh… what what we doing next week and are actually two weeks from now for the next episode?

1:12:04
BR: Well, funny you should ask. We actually have a handful of things. We’re not settled on exactly the topic. It’ll be Squaring the Strange Topic Roulette. It might be Mothman. It might be literary hoaxes. We’ve also talked about a show on subversion in kids shows and something we’re calling the head show.

1:12:31
CW: We’ve also got crystal skulls possibly on the rotation and oh gosh, so many potentially strange topics we can dissect. And it could be something completely different from all of those because we’re always kind of developing multiple topics at the same time.

BR: Exactly and we’re trying to come across as professional organized. I think we’re fooling him. What do you think?

CW: I don’t know. Maybe I should edit this part out so that the illusion is kept up. But we will have one of those topics polished, edited, shined up, and put out for your amusement in two weeks. Until then, take care listeners. Bye-bye.

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1:13:32
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1:14:04
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