Pascual Romero: Hi guys, Pascual here. Before we get started, I just want to say that we greatly enjoy bringing you our podcast every week and have a fantastic time talking about all things mysterious and skeptical. However, this does take a good amount of time and some money to achieve and we have no outside sponsor support whatsoever, at least as of this recording. This show is made possible by subscriber support through Patreon. Our patrons keep the lights on so to speak and make it possible for our show to be hosted and streamed through various platforms as well as keep up our web presence. Patrons receive monthly bonus content as well as free stickers for their support. If you’re interested in becoming a patron, head on over to our Patreon page at patreon.com forward slash squaring the strange. Anyway, thanks again. Enjoy the episode.

Ben Radford: Welcome to squaring the strange where we apply critical thinking and evidence based analysis to well everything from the simple to the strange the mysterious to the mundane.

PR: Welcome back to squaring the strange. This is episode 5. Can you believe we’ve made it 5 episodes?

BR: I’m happy with it. I want to thank all our listeners for the support and everything from Facebook and social media. We appreciate your listening and tuning in and comments and criticisms. It’s all good.

0:01:48
PR: And thank you guys so much for supporting us on Patreon and iTunes and on our website and Instagram and Twitter. Anyway, this week’s going to be a lot of fun. We’re heading into part 2 of the Jamaican folklore. And I think this week’s going to be a lot of fun. I’m really excited about this topic. So Ben, like every week, it’s been another crazy week. What current thing are you skeptical about?

BR: There’s all manner of weirdness out there. In this particular case of the thing that really caught my eye over the past week or so was the controversy and I use the word in possible scare quotes about the new Netflix series 13 Reasons Why. I’m sure many of our listeners have seen something about it. Maybe many of them have watched it. It’s a 13-episode Netflix adaptation of a best selling 2007 young adult novel of the same name. I have not, let me just begin by saying I haven’t watched it. So I’m not commenting on its contents other than the controversy around it.

PR: I can say that I have walked into the kitchen and seen it over my wife Ashley’s shoulder as she was binge watching the entire series. But no, I haven’t seen much more than that of it. Although maybe we have to bring Ashley on if we ever decide to do a whole episode on it.

BR: Well, it basically follows a fictional story. It’s not a documentary or anything. About a teenage girl who leaves behind 13 audio recordings on cassette tapes after killing herself. And each one is a just to a specific person that she says played a role in her suicide. When I first saw this, when I first saw discussions about it, a week or two back, It was just sort of a passing interest. I’d seen many, I recalled many similar made for TV movies and films and tv shows. This is not the first time when this is this is sort of touched on. Yeah. So there’s a long history of controversy. It’s both real and imagined and exaggerated about what are kids watching and everything. The usually involves sort of hot button issues like anorexia, suicide, bullying, you know, things like that. And so the main concern these days seems to be about what effect it’s going to have on its audiences. And so that’s really sort of been the big news over the past week or two is people… there’s been several op-eds, news stories on major news sites talking about this. And of course, one benefit whether intended or not is of course it’s promoting the series. All the controversy, you know, they I don’t want to sound cynical. But of course…

PR: well, it’s yeah. If you’re a media company or you make movies or television, you know, regardless of any altruism, you’re, you know, your main goal is getting viewers.

BR: Exactly. Exactly.

0:05:06
And so, so again, there’s been lots of discussion about whether kids should watch it. Should they not watch it? Is it, you know, should they should they get counseling before watching it? Should they should they have an adult holding their hand while they watch it? I mean, there’s there’s all this sort of thing. And, and, and you know, I get that. I mean, you know, keep in mind that, you know, suicide is is is at high levels. It’s, you know, the among young adults, it’s the third leading cause of death, according to the CDC. So there’s a there’s, you know, suicide has been at very high levels for many, many years, but also in the military. A couple years back, there was lots of concern in the New York Times, and elsewhere about the high levels of suicide among active, duty members and others. So, so certainly, you know, I, I’m all for anything that, that, you know, raises discussions about suicide. And that’s all well and good. But I’m somewhat skeptical of the, the, the concerns about the impacts that it’s going to have on, on kids. That’s, that’s sort of where I, that’s where I come into it. Like, well, hold on. I mean, at the end of the day, you know, it’s fictional entertainment. And the controversy, as I said, should be seen in the context of age old concerns about the dangers of films and TV on real life. I, and, you know, of course, many of the people that are talking about it, they’re doing it from a good place. I mean, some of them are doing it to promote the series. A lot of them are genuinely concerned about, oh my God, you know, what is this going to do to kids? Is this going to spur, for example, a rash of suicides? Is this going to, what, what is this going to do? And I, I get that. But keep in mind that, that people have been ringing their hands about what kids are watching and doing. Or for, well over a century. Uh, you know, you go back to violent video games. Well, the concerns that playing violent video games are going to have real life consequences. Um, you know, for, for, for several decades, uh, there was concern that watching porn was going to lead to increase sexual assault and rape. And in, in virtually all these cases, the answer is no. There’s no data. I mean, the, supposed, the supposed link between, uh, rapin porn has been pretty thoroughly discredited. Uh, and in fact, there’s a new book called Moral Combat, uh, which is, uh, which I, I look through. And, um, recently, and that talks about the, the concerns about the parents and, and others have about, you know, whether violent video games lead to real life violence. And, and again, the answer is complicated, but essentially no.

0:07:52
So, you know, so I guess I’m skeptical of the hype and the, the parental concerns, particularly in the media. You know, it’s true that, you know, there is some evidence that, that certain depictions can inspire copycats. I mean, that, that’s true. I researched it. Um, right. But it’s mostly in, first of all, it’s rare. Uh, second of all, it’s, it’s primarily on people who already predisposed to that. So the, the idea that the average kid is going to watch a TV show and decide to kill themselves is pretty far fetched. Now, you know, you know, could certain people who already depressed and already maybe have a history of suicide, could they be inspired to kill themselves because of this, this, this, this series, it’s possible. Anything is possible. They could also be inspired to kill themselves by some, some depressing song. Or, you know, their best friend being mad at them. I mean, there’s, there’s, there’s, yeah. The side is, is multi-variant. There’s, there’s all sorts of very complex influences. And so the idea that, that somehow watching this particular series is going to drive, you know, an epidemic, I think, is, is probably, probably pretty far fetched.

PR: I agree. I think I’ve been, you know, I’ve actually been a pretty avid gamer my whole life. And also, you know, being in the, in the segment of the music world, I mean, you know, I’m, I’m subject to that a lot. There was, you know, during the whole satanic panic, there was a lot of, a lot of discussion over whether music lyrics could affect things or the right messages and music could affect things. And, mind you, there are hidden messages in music that were a direct result of people accusing us of putting messages and music. Mostly as a joke, actually entirely is a joke. But, but, anyway, so, you know, but in the long run, we never saw, you know, really an uptick in anything as a result of, you know, violent video games or violent content and music. And, and like you said, I think it’s mostly because the only time it may have any correlation is when the person was already in the mindset to do that in the first place. And, and even saying someone is inspired by it is a little tricky because well, it’s, you know, I mean, maybe it contributed to the way they decided to do it. But, it was a matter of time regardless a kid doesn’t just shoot up a school because he plays Doom.

BR: And, you know, keep in mind that as I said, there’s, there’s a long, long history of, of blaming fiction, which is what this is for, for concerns about the real life consequences. You can look at, for example, at the, the Salinger novel Catcher in the Rye. Oh, yeah. Which was, which has been explicitly blamed for several murders, including the murder of, of John Lennon, and others as well. Now, did, is Salinger responsible for Lennon’s murder of course now? Could it have played some, some, some small role in some, some person’s mind? Yeah, anything is possible.

PR: Yeah. But I think he was, he would have been, you know, looking for that meaning in something else if catcher in the ride hadn’t existed, you know, it could have been, you know, Mr. Rodgers neighborhood, probably.

BR: Well, I mean, and so, I mean, one of the, one of the things you do find is, for example, a lot of the concern is based in the psychology of modeling and role models. And I researched this, for example, in the context of claims about anorexia and fashion models, and the claim that, that, that young women and girls in particular would be inspired somehow to start dieting to excess or somehow develop anorexia through watching, you know, through seeing thin models on, on TV and magazines. And, and I mean, I’ve researched this extensively. There’s just not good evidence for that. What you do find is there’s an effect in which there can be modeling of a certain behavior. So for example, and this is based on the psychologist Albert Bandera. And Bandera was talking about how if, if we see, if we see another person engaging in a behavior that we can copy the behavior. So for example, you, you see that 10 or 15 years ago, there were concerns that well intentioned after school specials about anorexia would in fact encourage anorexia. And the concern was that, that again, just, that, that seeing fictional depictions of a girl who is struggling with depression or anorexia was going to inspire this. And what you find is that is that the modeling behavior that Bandera talked about is physically you have to actually see the depictions. So for example, just be, just seeing a thin person does not inspire anorexia. First of all, anorexia is largely genetic. So it’s actually genetic disease. You can’t catch anorexia from looking at thin person. Because they could be thin for any number of reasons.

0:12:56
But what, what can at times happen is if, if, for example, a person, an actress is depicted binging and purging, for example, throwing up at a toilet, that is an action that can be seen and modeled by someone else. So, so, so there’s an important distinction here where, you know, it is true that under certain conditions, there can be a role model influence where someone sees something and says, you know, I want to be like that. Yeah. But of course, in most of these cases, you know, anorexia is not glamorized, suicide is not glamorized. So, so again, there’s, the fact is there’s, you know, there’s, mere exposure doesn’t necessarily to the actions. And, you know, it’s far more complicated than the general public and even many journalists portray it. Like, well, you know, oh, my, should we be worried that, you know, there’s going to be an increase in, you know, in suicide, so among kids who are watching this Netflix series, no, probably not. And, and, and, and, and frankly, I mean, we can test this. This is a falsifiable claim. He, it’s very simple to do. We know when the Netflix series goes, it’s already, it’s already aired and it’s continuing. And six months, a year, four, five years from now, we can look back and we can see we can, we can correlate, well, was there in fact a spike in suicides shortly after this series aired? And I will bet you the answer is no.

0:14:23
Um, now again, that’s, that’s not to discount the, the concerns and claims about parents. I mean, I get it. You, you’re worried about what your kids are watching and you’re worried about what, what they’re seeing and how I influence them. I get that. You know, I think one thing that tends to get lost is the sort of patronizing attitude about it. It’s interesting. You have, you have the, the experts and even some, some advocates who they’re like, well, you know, like I’m too smart to, to, I’m not going to be influenced by this series. And it’s fiction. You know, it’s like we all know that this isn’t real. We’re, you know, we’re not going to be influenced. But it’s the other people that, yeah, people who aren’t quite as smart as I am. The people who are, who are more easily manipulated by, by who want to watch a series like that’s really patronizing. I mean, I, get that you want to be concerned about. And I get that you know, I get that you need to look out for people who, you know, maybe aren’t as, as, you know, media-literate or I get that. But that very easily bleeds into this, this patronizing attitude of like, well, we’re all too smart to be influenced by this series. But it’s the stupid people over there. Or it’s not just a stupid, but people who maybe, again, they may be suffering from mental illness. And, and I get that. And that is a real, but remote concern. But it’s like, come on, give, give people some credit.

PR: And that’s a really common mentality that, you see it a lot, especially from kind of the religious fundamentalists, like, you know, they always think like, you know, these gay people are going to influence people to be gay. And these trans people are going to go in and turn people gay or whatever. You know, and it’s, it’s like, would that happen to you? Do you think, do you honestly believe like, if you were exposed to that, you would turn gay? Because I don’t think you think that.

0:16:03
But you think other people think it’s, it’s, right. You’re, you’re projecting some weird insecurity onto people that doesn’t exist. And in this case of this show, I think that’s a really valid point that people think somehow that they’re better than the, or not even think they know that they’re better than what they’re criticizing. And that problem is it’s like, okay, if you’re going to do that, I need you to find me these people you’re talking about because if, if you’re so sure that these people are going to be influenced by what you’re saying, you need to do your part to demonstrate who these people are, especially because frankly, if you’re making a claim that strong, you have a responsibility to identify these people. If you truly believe they exist because I don’t know who they are. I don’t personally know. And, you know, so you need to find them if that’s, if you really truly think that’s a valid concern. Yeah. And again, I mean, I get, I understand what they’re saying. And, and it is true. Again, there, there are, there are some people that may be predisposed to that, um, to, you know, be influenced by, that’s all well and good. But that’s not, you know, that’s not most people. And, and, and frankly, who, you know, I, I’m just repeating myself, but just, yeah, I just think there’s a, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a often overlooked condescension.

0:17:27
Agreed. Sure. But I, I think that a lot of the concern is really exaggerated and misplaced. So what do you, what do you skeptical of, Pascal?

PR: So this week, um, I just read, read an article from the New York Times that was titled, Ten Concerts Facebook meme may reveal more than musical tastes. Now, um, just to catch everyone up or those of you listening six months from now and we’ve completely forgotten about this, uh, this week, especially, or last week by the time you’re hearing this, there was a, uh, kind of a meme going around on Facebook where everyone was sharing, uh, Ten Concerts, they attended and one of them is a lie. And you know, it’s just kind of one of those things that people share to get a conversation going about stuff they’ve checked out or maybe a way to brag or whatever. But, you know, it’s, it’s all in good fun. But this article claims that the, um, that these, these Ten Concerts lists are actually creating a security risk.

BR: What?

PR: Yeah. For your, uh, mostly for your online presence in general, um,

BR: it’s like leaving your door unlocked, right?

PR: Yeah, exactly. So they’re, you know, they’re claiming and they say in the article, uh, privacy experts. I don’t know what that means. I don’t know where you get that job. But, it says that privacy experts caution that it could reveal too much about a person’s background in preferences. And it sounds like a security question, like name the first concert you attended that you might be asked on a banking brokerage or similar website to verify your identity.

0:19:10
Now, the reason I am skeptical, it’s not because that’s not a valid concern. I mean, that, that is, that’s valid. But Facebook is essentially one big privacy dump as it is. And, Information like that, I mean, if that, this isn’t the first time you’ve shared that kind of information. I mean, everyone shares personal information, even those of us, I mean, I, I like to think I try to keep my personal life, you know, kind of carefully inner woven with my, my, you know, my social network life and, and I try not to give too much away about what I’m doing or where I am. But, you know, but I still talk about things I’m interested in. I still talk about my family. I still talk about details that, um, can be very easy to identify me by. And I think that in this goes for everyone, you know, we all, I mean, the fact that you’re on Facebook at all is you’re allowing a large part of your personal privacy to kind of be pulled away from you and given to basically the general public, even if you have a pretty locked down profile, I mean, you still have a lot of people that you don’t know well, you know, kind of following your day to day.

BR: And of course, you know, keep in mind that that’s, that’s your choice. You, you clicked that there’s terms and agreements terms, terms of service. And if you read it, which nobody does, it’s right there. So yeah, it’s like people like, well, how come there’s all this information because you put it up there and you told them, you gave them legal information to share it.  That’s why it’s out there.

PR: Yeah. You opted in, you opted in. And I think that’s really the bigger lesson is that maybe in being a real skeptic, this article is a good, it’s a good thing to point out, but it needs to be expanded on because the part that made me skeptical was that this is nothing new. You know, the 10 concerts is just a drop in the bucket of things you’ve shared that could easily identify you or easily give away those kinds of security answers. And, you know, I mean, for instance, you know, mothers maiden name or, or, you know, the name of your first born, you know, the security questions themselves are already kind of the problem because, you know, mother’s maiden name, a Google search for just about anyone can get you their mothers made a name, you know, and, and especially with, you know, people like me whose parents have been divorced most of their life, you know, my mom’s been going by her maiden name since I was six years old. So anyone who’s even met her knows her maiden name.

0:21:38
And, you know, so, so, you know, there’s that on that, you know, side of things, maybe the questions are maybe this tells us that the questions are stupid to begin with. But again, it’s, it’s just, it’s kind of silly to pick that one little meme that’s floating around Facebook and saying this is a security risk when we’ve been taking that risk since the day we signed up for Facebook. I mean, there’s just way too much personally identifiable information on the internet about you anyway.

BR: Absolutely, no, I think you’re exactly right. I mean, that’s, that’s why it’s always amusing to me when, when I see people, including friends of mine, get sort of outraged at the violation of privacy, you know, like, yeah, they’re so concerned that Google is watching them like, you know, anybody who spends like 20 minutes looking at your Facebook page knows all about you. Or if they, you know, if they happen to be behind your, your suburban van and they see the little, little stickers on the, on the back window, giving everybody’s names, ages, mom, dad, I mean, you’re telling everybody about you. It’s like, which, which is fine, but, but then don’t then be outraged and indignant. That like, wow, they know all this about me. Well, you’re telling them. Yeah. And I think exactly right. I mean, the question is not, and it sort of goes to the, it sort of goes to, you know, what I was talking about, the question is not, could it happen? The question is not, you know, could somebody, you know, look at your list of 10 bands and use that to hack into, of course, they could. And in the same way, the question is that, is it possible that some, some people watching the Netflix series 13 Reasons Why could be inspired to kill themselves?

0:23:27
Or anything is possible. That’s not the question. The question the skeptics ask is, is there evidence for it? Is this actually going on? Is there good evidence of this, the genuine, you know, real legitimate concern, not, not a remote possibility? And yeah, I think there’s both examples that we chose this week about what we’re skeptical of a really good, for lessons in skepticism, because, you know, I think part of it is discriminating remote from, from real dangers. And that’s, that’s what the skeptical outlet does, right? It says, look, there’s, there’s a wide variety of, of, of real problems in the world, right? And things that are maybe true, maybe occasionally true caveats, that, you know, they’re true in their certain condition. Like, for example, vaccine safety, right? And like, well, vaccines are not 100% safe. No, they’re not. No, no, they’re not. Granted. You got me. You got me. You know, why? Because the same thing with, with health foods or any, any food, I mean, anything you, you take can, can cause problems. Any medical procedure has risks, by its nature. Um, so is it, is it true that there is some danger in vaccines? Yes. Does that outweigh their benefits? Absolutely not. And so, so, you know, in the examples of what we’re talking about this week, is there a possibility that these things could pose a threat? Sure. Is it, is it a real danger that we should all be concerned about? Probably not.

0:24:54
Yeah. Well, you know, I see both of these as, as frankly a failure in journalism. In the, in the examples that we just talked about, one’s in the New York Times, one’s on CNN and, and elsewhere. And, you know, it’s journalists needing to make something out of nothing. And again, I’m not minimizing, you know, I’m not minimizing the, the very real threat of suicide, we’re not minimizing, uh, the other things, but I mean, the fact is that, you know, journalists need something to blog about, right? And, and, yeah, there’s, there’s a great quote from David Brinkley, uh, that I, I begin my book, Medium Myth Makers with, and he says, “when there’s no news, we give it to you with the same emphasis as if there were.” And, you know, and that’s exactly what happens, right? It’s, if, if you have no news, then hype up something that, that is of minimal concern, and then make a story out of it.

PR: So last week, we talked about the White Witch of Rose Hall. And, uh, this week, we’re continuing our two part series on Jamaican folklore with a really interesting topic, um, and, uh, a very cool bit of, uh, legend. So I’ll go ahead and just hand it on over to you, Ben. What do we have on tap this week?

BR: Well, this week, I’ll be talking about duppies, duppies.

PR: That sounds like such a cute thing.

BR” They’re not there. They’re evil little bastards. They’re like tiny fish.

0:26:29
Yes. Oh, look at little duppies. I first got interested in Jamaican folklore when I was there, and I think 2005 or so, uh, and I was there on, on vacation or on holiday, as, as the European say. And, uh, I stopped in, and, uh, at, uh, Rose Hall, uh, Rose Hall plantation in Montego Bay, which of course we talked about last time. And it was just fascinating because, you know, I, I’d researched legends and lore and, and folklore and ghosts and all that, but I, I didn’t really know that that much about Jamaica specifically. And the more I learned about, like, this is really interesting. And, and so it’s, it’s really been fun to, to go back and, and, and explore some of the, uh, not just through folklore journals, which I researched, but I’ll just go in there and, and speaking to the people. And I mean, I love whenever I go to some, some, some, uh, some foreign country, uh, you know, just traveling with a rucksack, I just love to talk to the locals. Just, yeah, just conversation, right? Sure. I like to get beyond the typical tourist stuff. I mean, all that’s well and good, but like, you know, like, so, okay, fine. Here’s the, okay, tell me all about Bob Marley’s bought boyhood house and show me another huge roster, you know, ashtray. But like, no, tell me, tell me something interesting about the, the, the, the folklore and the, the people stories. And that’s what, and what I found is that, is that when I, I was there recently, and what I find is that their faces really light up. Because their use to the tourists coming in there and, you know, you want in their, their sunscreen and, you know, doing this and looking around. But, but it’s, it’s, they really light up when you ask about the, the stories from their childhood. And, and, and, and, and so when I was talking to them about Duppies, they’re like, oh, you know, you know, you know about the Duppies, I know a little bit about Duppies telling me what you know. So anyway, um, so with that rambling introduction, Duppies of Jamaica.

0:28:35
The word Duppy actually has several meanings in Jamaica. What it can mean, um, the soul of dead, of a dead person. So there’s sort of like the after a person dies their, their soul goes up. It’s very much like ghost. In, in, in ghost in, in English, there’s, there’s no one specific universally agreed upon definition of ghosts. There’s, you know, a ghost experience can, can mean any, any number of things. The same thing is, is certainly true with Duppies in Jamaica. So to, some people use the word to refer to, uh, the soul of a dead person. Other times it’s the soul of a dead person in animal specifically. So it’ll be like, you know, the, they’ll see like a snake or a frog or a bird or something and say, there’s a Duppie in there. And what they mean is that there’s a, there’s a human spirit that is, is embodying that animal. And then there’s a sort of more general usage of Duppie, which is basically a, various supernatural entities. And so it’s sort of more general. It’s not specific, referring to a human soul spirit. So this is one of the things when you’re talking about, when you’re researching and talking about Duppies, it’s important to sort of get a sense of how the speaker is using it. Because if you don’t ask about that, then you could be assuming it’s one particular definition when they’re in fact, you know,

PR: yeah, that’s, that’s just kind of how I feel going into it. I did watch a couple of short videos and read a little bit, um, online, uh, and, and I, I very quickly realized that it’s, it can be a kind of a nebulous concept that depending on who’s talking about it and what context it is, I even, uh, I believe I even kind of came across it being using the context of zombies to and Duppies, it reanimating corpses and things like that. So, which is something, one reason I’m so interested in, uh, Jamaican folklore and, and voodoo and all that stuff is because, you know, as a kid growing up, zombies were just a huge thing to me and the origin on earth. So, so my exposure was all that Hollywood ridiculous stuff, but, um, absolutely.

0:30:42
So going back into it at this angle is, is a lot of fun. So I’m excited to, uh, keep going on this.

BR: Yeah, definitely. So, so let me, uh, let me back up a little bit. So there’s some very interesting parallels to fairy folklore and genie or jinn folklore, uh, in, in Duppies and, and, and because I’ve researched some of that stuff since the last few times I was in Jamaica, it’s interesting, you know, I’ll be reading a book about, about, uh, genies, for example, there’s very good book, uh, by Robert Lebling called Legends of the Fire Spirits, which I, I read several times and I recommend if anyone’s interested in that sort of thing. Um, and so after having read that book and I go back and, and I look at Duppie lore again, there’s, uh, fascinating parallels. So you have, uh, for, so for example, the Duppies are said to have their own lives and language and songs and things like that. And so in many cases, um, there’s this notion that these, these spirits have their own parallel worlds. Uh, and you see this, for example, in, in, in British, fairy lore, and, and also in, in the genies, uh, in Islam. Um, so there’s this notion that, that there’s these, these, these creatures that are not us, but are similar to us in many ways that have their own parallel lives. They, you know, they go to jobs presumably. They, they, they eat food. They sing songs. They have sex. They, have parallel lives to us. Uh, and, um, the thing about Duppies is they can assume, uh, many forms. Uh, and this is also similar of the genies, not so much with the, the, the fairies. So the, the fairies are sometimes said to assume forms, but they, they’re sort of a, a classic.

PR: There’s a fairy, a fairy that we all kind of know.

BR: Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Uh, in the case of Duppies, they’re usually said to assume, uh, the form of, for example, snakes, lizards, uh, uh, uh, frogs, uh, in some cases, like a humunculus, like a small, small dwarf. And this, this, to my mind, uh, takes me back to, for example, uh, another figure that I researched in Central America called the Duende, uh, which, which is, appears in, in Belizean folklore, also in Honduras and Nicaragua and elsewhere. Uh, and one day, one day, we’ll, we’ll, I’ll do a show on the Duende because it’s, I have them called Duende stories. Anyway. But so in both these cases, you have this, this notion of this, this supernatural, uh, human-like figure that can, that can change form. And one thing about, one thing about the, the Duppies that also has parallel lives with the genie and the, the jinn is that they can be created or enlisted by, uh, Obeah or, um, uh, the witch doctor.

0:33:26
And so, uh, there’s this notion that a Duppy, uh, maybe sort of generated it. You can also see parallels in demonology, for example, you look at the history, historically, like the, some of the, the Grimoires, so the, the magic books. Some of them were said to have spells, uh, and stories that, that would, uh, the legend that would allow them to create these. So one of the things that’s really interesting about, about the, the Duppies is that they’re said to be created or enlisted by Obeah or, or the witch doctors. And so you’ll, you’ll, you’ll see stories of, for example, an evil spirit being generated in the form of Duppie, you may sent to a rival. Uh, and so, you know, if you, if you piss off your neighbor, watch out, because they, they may be enlisting black magic. Um, and this actually has parallels to the, the genies. I remember, uh, a couple years back, I wrote an article for, uh, for lifescience.com, uh, and there was this, there was an interesting story, in Iran. There were accusations in the Iranian government that high-ranking officials were using genies, uh, to attack rivals. Political rivals. And there was a guy, and this is like totally serious story. Yeah, it’s, it’s fascinating. The totally serious, very legit story where like a high-ranking Iranian official that had a heart attack. And he blamed the heart attack on a rival sending a genie to, to cause that. And that sort of same thing, that sort of thing happens exactly with Duppies as well. Uh, so there’s interesting, you know, them being sort of, you know, generated in service of, of nefarious, um, various deeds. Um, and in fact, there’s some lore that says that Duppies can be caught in bottles. Like Aladdin’s lamp.

0:35:20
So there’s interesting parallels. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I didn’t see any, you know, having rubbed the lamp, which is a whole other thing. Um, but typically Duppies in, in Jamaican lore are said to cause accidents, set fires, throw stones, uh, bring bad luck. And in this regard, this is, this is, you know, pretty much within the realms of fairy folklore. And these are, and also ghost folklore. This is, that’s what a lot of times ghosts are said to do is, you know, the mischievous things. They don’t, they don’t, you know, they don’t start wars. They, they, they make you stub your toe. They make you have insomnia.

PR: They freak you out and knock things over as well as I covered in the email last week.

BR: Exactly. Exactly. And so, you know, it’s interesting when you look at the history because that’s, you know, it’s, it’s some of those same beliefs and magical beliefs, magical thinking go back to, to vampire lore in, in the, in the, in the middle ages in Europe. I mean, you have people who, uh, something bad would happen and they attribute to, to vampires. A cow stops giving milk or there’s a still, still birth or, um, the coughs fail or something. And they look for reasons, right? It’s the, it’s the classic, you know, superstition, right? Why do, why do bad things happen to good people? And, and sometimes the answers that they come up with is I was cursed. Or there’s, a duppy on me, right? Mm-hmm. Because I, I did something bad to arrival. And it’s, it’s, I’ve always found it really interesting how, how magical thinking, um, sort of adapts in different ways. Here’s vampires. There are its duppies. There’s genies. Here it’s the fairies.

0:37:11
Here it’s ghosts. And they all sort of have, have a common theme there and common thread of some, some unseen malevolent supernatural presence. Um, that is either annoying you or, or vexing you for its own entertainment or at the direction of someone else who’s doing bad things to you.

PR: I do kind of, um, like how in certain cultures and, and it seems to be the case with, with the Jamaican, uh, duppies, there’s, there’s a cautionary element to it that it almost is a love thy neighbor thing. You know, it’s like, don’t, you know, don’t, don’t make enemies and don’t, don’t piss people off because they might send a, you know, a curse out on you and, and they may call a duppy forth upon you, you know, and, um, I find that really fascinating because it’s interesting how different cultures have different weight to that now, Do they believe that, so if you were to say someone one to, to pester your neighbor or cause harm to your neighbor or some, do they believe that there’s kind of that, that, um, that payment that you have to make is the summoner like the, the, you know, the bad luck that you get off of it or, you know, is there something like that?

BR: There is an element of that. Now, typically the, the people that talk about duppies are, are the, every day Jamaicans. And what I mean by that is, is the, the, it’s, it’s usually something that’s assumed to its presence is assumed. Not necessarily confirmed because, you know, how do you confirm the presence of a duppy? How do you confirm the presence of a ghost or, or, or, or a fairy?

PR: But also make sure to buy the squaring the strange duppieometer.

0:38:51
It’ll be a hundred dollars. That’s right. I will give, we’ll leave info at the end of the episode.

BR: That’s right. That’s right. But, but yeah, so, so what you find is that in, in these cases, the, the presence of, of, of a dubby is, is sort of seen or intuitive through circumstantial evidence. And again, the idea is that, like, you know, if someone falls asleep at the wheel or a fire, who’s seriously set, it couldn’t have just been, I was lazy, you know, I was too tired. I mean, again, it goes back to like, why me? Why me? Why? Well, because, you know, something’s happening. And, you know, in fairy lore, for example, there are stories of, of, of chest pains, for example, being caused by, on it, mysterious unexplained maladies like chest pains is sought, is said to be, you know, done by, by fairies, or for example, in horses, sometimes the horse hairs will be tied in knots. And that’ll be attributed to, to fairies. And so you have this, this really interesting name, this, this really interesting idea of the nature of duppies being, on one hand, capricious. Don’t, don’t piss them on. They’re not necessarily out to get you, unless they’ve been, you know, sent specifically to harm you by, an obeah, in which case, what you can do is, then you hire another one. So you, you see, good.

0:40:18
Yeah, it’s fascinating. So you would have, and you also see this, for example, in Sub-Saharan Africa, in, in, in which craft beliefs there, where somebody will, will think that bad things are happening to them that are caused by some, some, some duppy or ghost or evil spirit. And so, you can either suffer through it, or if you have enough, the resources, you go higher, a rival to cast, cast a, a separate spell and maybe bring another duppy to, to belly to the route for a small fee, of course, sure, or not. But yeah, you have, you have entire, uh, rivalries that have been played out through proxies in the spirit world. And, but yeah, say, but you have a strong element of, of, you, you talk about sort of like the, the boogie man aspect and social control. And, uh, and that’s very much the case here. For example, a lot, when you, when you look through duppy lore, a lot of it involves, um, sort of, just so stories and, and, uh, morality stories, right? So, for example, um, they say that you shouldn’t throw water outside at night without warning, because it might hit a duppy. Yeah. Now, keep in mind that a lot of the dubby stories, of course, they’ve originated long, long ago, but that a lot of the belief in duppies from what I could tell was in the center part of Jamaica. It’s not necessarily in the, in the big cities like Kingston or, or Montego Bay, uh, plays like that. It’s, it’s really in the mountainous interior. Where tourists really don’t go very much. I mean, you can go there, but it’s not one of the main, main places.

0:41:57
It’s not the draw, and it’s, it’s also, um, it’s remote. Uh, electricity is not, in a lot of places, it’s just, you know, it’s, it’s rugged area. And like many places, uh, there tends to be higher belief in, in magic in rural areas. Uh, I also saw this, for example, when I was researching the Chupacabra, uh, in, in Puerto Rico. Outside of the main cities like San Juan there, there was more belief in Chupacabra. Partly because, of course, in the rural areas of the Chippaacabra’s more of a threat. The Chupacabra attacking animals and livestock and, yeah, and, and, and goats and things like that. Well, if you live in the city, you’re not that worried about Chupacabra because you don’t have any goats. You don’t have to have to worry about. So it’s really the, the social context and the cultural context that really sort of evokes these, these beliefs.  So, so, and when you look back at that, the one I just mentioned, not throwing water outside at night without warning, it, it serves two purposes. One, of course, is that, uh, again, to you and me, well, what’s the big deal about throwing water outside at night? Well, outside it’s dark and there could be a neighbor. It could be some, somebody walking by. Uh, and so on, on one level, it’s a warning against, uh, so anyway, the idea is that you’re not allowed to, it’s not that you’re not allowed to throw water out your window. It’s that you do it with warning.

0:43:20

You say, hey, or you make a noise or you, you make some sort of auditory warning to duppies, strangers, other people, whatever it is. That you’re about to do this. And that’s, that is, that’s the, that’s the prescription of that. And so, so again, it serves two purposes. On one hand, on, on the surface level, it’s like, well, you might, you know, you might throw water in a duppy and then, you know, get, be tormented because that on another level, it’s like, don’t be an ass. Don’t do something that, that might annoy a neighbor. You also see, for example, there’s, there’s the belief that if you let a baby cry all night, the duppie will take its voice. And again, there’s another perfect example, right. So, there’s other reasons why you shouldn’t let your baby cry all night. It’s bad parenting. I mean, there’s lots of, there’s lots of non-duppy reasons to not do that. But the one that’s, you know, the one that’s used in service of is, is the duppy story. Because it’ll, it’ll take the voice. And of course, that, you also see this in, in stories of La llarona, and the whole notion of, you know, being careful with your kids and don’t do, don’t do things that might harm the kids. And another example that I was, when I was reading through a lot of the, the duppy lore, a lot of stories deal with treating animals well. It was interesting sort of, I read probably several dozen duppie stories in a collection of books that I have and, and folklore journals. And oftentimes, the, the moral of the story is treat your animals well, particularly donkeys. Donkeys and, and, and horses make many appearances in, in duppy lore. And again, all, all with the sort of the general theme of, don’t overwork your donkeys. Don’t be cruel to them. In some cases, it was because the, the, the donkey would die and come back as a duppy. Even though oftentimes it’s thought of as a human spirit, it could also presume to be a donkey spirit.

PR: So a vengeful donkey ghost.

BR: That’s right. That’s the last thing you need. So, so again, you have this, you have this, this, this morality story of not mistreating animals. Who doesn’t agree with that? Yeah. So, yeah. Don’t let your baby cry all night. Don’t mistreat animals. Um, and, you know, don’t, don’t throw water outside. Do you, without, without warning Because you might splash your neighbor. So, all these are duppy stories that again, on one level, they’re, they’re ghost evil spirit stories, but on, on another level, it’s, it’s just like, hey, um, be cool.

PR: Yeah. I almost imagine, uh, the water one coming from some passive aggressive neighbor that, you know, lived next door and, you know, he got giant face full of dishwater or something one night and he comes knocking on the door and he’s like, hey, uh, not to be a bother, but, uh, you got a bunch of water on me and don’t worry, I’m okay, but there’s duppies out here and you don’t want us to splash them. So, you might want to give them a warning.

BR: Next time dial that back. Yeah. It reminds me, there was, you know, going back to some the genie lore, uh, several genie stories talk about not attacking snakes and avoiding snakes and part of the reason that they stayed not, not do that is because the, uh, you may have a genie in the form of a snake. But again, there’s perfectly good reasons for not messing with snakes, especially out there. So you, you see this, this, this element of the boogie man in the in all these stories, very, very folklore, duppy stories, genie stories, uh, dwindier stories. But what, what, another interesting aspect that I came across, uh, was the notion that foreign duppies are said to be the strongest. And you’re looking at me weird and it’s interesting. See, here’s the, here’s the deal. So, uh, several times I was reading descriptions and it’s talking about, um, the, the, the most feared duppies are what are called coolie duppies. Uh, coolies for those who don’t know is a somewhat racist term for Asians, Chinese, okay. It’s in, in particular case. Um, but I mean, that’s what they’re called.

0:47:47
Coolies. I’m not, I’m not making it up here. Uh, and I’ll, or also Indians. And so, in, in Jamaican lore, the, the, the scariest, the most powerful, most evil, most feared duppies are the ghosts of Chinaman or Indians. And, uh, I also saw this in the case of, of Annie Palmer in Rose Hall that we talked about in the last episode, uh, where, um, Annie Palmer’s ghost was said to be among the most feared on the island. And at first I couldn’t figure this out like, why, why would that be? But when you look at it, that there’s a certain, makes a certain sense. Uh, you could maybe talk to like xenophobia, but there, there, there’s an element of how the foreigner, like the, the outsider, even if the Chinese family or the Indian has lived there for generations, they’re still an outsider, right? They’re not true Jamaicans. Just like Annie Palmer, uh, who, as, as we discussed last episode, never existed. But, but she presumably was from England or, right. She represented the white, you know, the white other, the white, powerful other. And there is a long history of, of, you know, social reason to feel that way about the powerful other that comes over. Anyway, it’s just, it was just an interesting, uh, aspect that I hadn’t expected to encounter. And maybe it’s, maybe part of it goes back to thinking that, you know, that the homegrown magic isn’t as powerful as something this exotic, you know, right from, from, you know, from Haiti or from England or, yeah. Um, anyway, it’s just, it’s just,

PR: it makes sense. I think it, kind of, you know, if you look at Western legend and, and horror, you know, and, and even American, kind of conventional horror stories when you look back, especially in kind of the golden age of, of horror films and, and books, you know, it was a lot of these, um, the mummy, you know, it’s, it’s like this Egyptian curse, you know, and, and zombies were always from Haitian and Jamaican legend and, um, you had a lot of that kind of outsider, you know, there, a lot of, there was very, there was a lot of it. I mean, it’s a lot of the very conventional horror that we kind of take for granted nowadays that, you know, really set off the, the craze for horror cinema and horror literature was, was about outsiders and, and I think it’s, again, it’s the fear, the unknown, and we don’t understand these cultures and we don’t understand things they do. So we kind of tie that into, see, we take advantage of that fear.

BR: Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, that’s, as you said, that’s a common theme in, in horror films specifically, you look at, you know, films such as, you know, Texas Chainsaw Massacre where you have, you have the, the, the outsiders among us, right? Yeah, you have the fish out of water. You have these, these, these, these kids, you know, on, on, in a van going to deep dark remote Texas, right? Things ain’t the same around you, like in Deliverance.

0:50:50
Yeah, deliverance. Hills have eyes. Yeah. All these are, there’s a common theme of, of the familiar being pushed into, uh, the unfamiliar and, and the foreigners and the weird things around us. So that’s an interesting element to it. Uh, but to the good news, in case you’re wondering what you’re, you’re like, what’s the good news here? So the good news in case you’re wondering is that, um, there are ways to turn away duppies.

PR: Okay, good. I was getting a little worried there.

BR: I, I’m all ears. I thought you were. I see that. Let look over the arm in your face. Yes. Given that you have probably, you know, 20 pounds on me and tattoos and you’re like far more fierce than the most duppy, I would say. Um, so yes, like vampires, there are, there are folklore, folklore remedies and prophylactics, I guess, for the, the duppies. One of them is, what they call cutting ten. And cutting ten is, um…

PR: It’s not surfing. It sounds like something you do when you surf. You can, you can surf away from there.

BR: No, cutting ten is, um, there’s a couple versions, but one of them is if you have a pen knife, uh, you can make an X in the ground. And the idea is, uh, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s sort of this weird strained, but it’s folklore, right? It’s not sure. Is it weird and strange? Yes. Welcome to folklore.

0:52:21
But the, the idea is that, uh, is that if you make an X on the ground, the X is, of course, the Roman numerals for ten, uh, and a little bit of duppy trivia, duffy’s can’t count to ten. Who knew, right? There you go. Uh, one, two, three, four, they stop at nine, and they can’t get past nine. I don’t know why that is. Maybe, maybe they need to improve the schools and in the, in the, in the duppy schools in Jamaica.

PR: They are a little underfunded.

BR: They are. They are. They are. Maybe the tourist, uh, some of that tourist money, you can go to…

PR: yeah, it’s like it’s not making it across the spectral plane, right?

BR: Something about it. But the idea is that, again, duppy’s can’t count past nine. So if you make, if you, if you, if either like, you know, um, make an X or make, or, you know, say the word ten, that there, there’s something magical about, and of course that goes into numerology, you know, the idea that the numbers have power. Yeah. And the idea is that if you make an X and the duppy will, we’ll have to stop what they’re doing. And, and they’ll, they’ll have to count past it and they’ll, they’ll, they’ll sort of go in the loop because they, they can’t, they can’t pass it. Um, they, they can’t pass the spot on the ground. Okay. And, you know, you also see this sort of, uh, story in, for example, uh, vampire lore.

0:53:41
One of the, one of the traditional ways of, of fading vampires is to have a handful of rice. Uh, and you throw it behind you, as you’re running for vampire, the idea is the vampire has to stop what they’re doing. Uh, and I guess they’re OCD or something. They have to stop what they’re doing. And they have to count the, the rice grain. And the idea is that it’ll take them so long to count all the rice grains that by the time they’re, they’re finished counting them, you’ll be long gone.

PR: So they’re just like 499, 500. Like, oh, shit. I got that one.

BR: Oh, I was standing on that one. Oh, I guess I was over again. But it’s again, I just, just interesting. So look at the numbers and the associated with the, the sort of the, the, the, the, the new moral logical significance, uh, to duppies and ghosts and vampires. Um, so there, there’s, there’s, uh, there’s cutting tend. There’s also, uh, you can also, uh, strike at a duppie, but you have to use your left hand just FYI. Yeah. Right hand is not effective. Uh, striking, uh, stracking with the left hand, that’s, that’s the way to go. If you, cool.

PR: Okay, I’ve got a good left hook.

BR: So, um, no, now what now? How exactly that works? I don’t know. Um, I’d be curious. What, how does one punch a ghost? Now keep in mind that, you know, in, in some, in some lore, they take physical form. So in theory, you know, you, you could punch a snake. You could, you could punch a lizard. Yes.

PR: It seems a little, little severe, but okay.

BR: Seems a little excessive. I admit. But yeah, I mean, but anyway, in whatever form it’s taking, uh, if you’re gonna, if you’re gonna try and defend yourself, use the left hand. And then another, another thing, I mean, there’s, there’s lots of different versions. I’m just giving you a sample. Another one is, uh, is you burn, you burn different substances. Okay. Uh, and, you know, I, I liken this back to, for example, smudging.

0:55:33
Uh, people who will burn, you know, different, uh, different types of, uh, you know, well, what’s, yeah, like we’re telling you,

PR: like we have, out here, sage is real common and easy to, you know, ward off, uh, negative energy here, evil spirits, depending on the, you know, the particular folklore.

BR: Right. Right. So that, that, that’s, that’s similar to us. In, in this case, I was told there’s two different types of, of, of things, well, they’re, they’re several, the, the two main ones are, are yellow or black sulfur. Uh, and, uh, so yeah, you, that’s, that’s what you do. And of course, interesting that is sulfur because sulfur is, of course, uh, associated in folklore with the devil. And the, the, the brimstone and the sulfur smell and that. The sulfur is very closely associated with a lot of the, the Satan tales. Uh, it’s fascinating. All these little intregulars. So, um, when I was talking to, uh, to, to my informants, uh, in, in Jamaica, I immediately said, well, hey, so, so, so just, just so I’m clear. So, so the, the sulfur keeps the dupy’s way. He’s like, oh, yeah, I was like, where do I find sulfur? And he’s like, oh, there’s a pharmacy. I’m like, let’s go. He’s like, okay. So, uh, we jumped off into, uh, into a pharmacy in, in Jamaica and I, I bought some sulfur. Uh, because I, it’s kind of cool, right?

0:56:59
I mean, I, genuine Jamaican sulfur and I, I actually asked several people, you know, like, uh, they said, well, they’re like, why is this white tourist buying sulfur in our pharmacy? And I was like, yeah, it’s for the duppies. He’s like, oh, that’s legit. There you go. I’ll take your money, right? So, but it’s interesting because with the, with the duppy lore, again, it’s one of those things where when you’re talking to people, you have to be careful how you approach it. And I’ve seen this in many different other cases where, you know, if you come across as mocking, they’re not going to talk to you. So, I mean, I’m not saying that my way is the, is the perfect. I’m just, in my experience, I tried to be very open-minded about it. And so, you know, I don’t know, I’m saying, well, you don’t believe in this crap, do you? I’m like, you know, this is, and I’m being very sincere. I’m not, I’m making fun of anybody. I, I genuinely find, as you know, I, I love folklore. I love stories, love legends. And, you know, if they ask me, do I believe in it? And I’ll say, well, you know, it’s not really a matter of what I, I’m interested in what you believe. My, my belief is not important. I want to know what you think because you’re, you grew up here and you’re, the, the, the Duppy stories and the lore and stuff. And so, as I said, it’s, it’s fascinating talking to everyday Jamaicans and, and talking about something other than just, you know, the typical tourist stuff. Because they all have stories about their youth. Like, my grandma told me this story, you know, when I was a kid, and they have these great photos, their faces light up, and they’re telling me what’s crazy things. And, um, anyway, so that, that’s really one of the fun parts.

PR: So, I think we’ve established that there are many Duppies in the world. So, what is your favorite duppy? My favorite duppy would be the rolling calf. As you know, I’ve, I’ve been researching monsters for, I don’t know, 20 years now. Lake monsters and Chupacabas. I was with Monster Talk for a long time. Um, and, I’m, but I have to say, of all the, of all the creatures and all the monsters that I have researched and read about and come across, the, the, the rolling calf is one of the most terrifying ones,

PR: which is ironic because of that. It is, is what, along with Duppie’s one of the least terrifying names of a monster. Like, I just think of like a little baby calf rolling down a grassy hole and each a little girl playing with it. You know,

BR: you would think, no, no, well, the, the rolling calf is, is a form of Duppie. Um, and it’s, um, it’s said to be, uh, it typically encountered at night as, as, as most ghosts are, but not all. and the way it was first described to me was a three-legged bull with chains around it, and a chains around it’s neck chains around its arms. And, uh, and, and so I, I was picturing it like out on like in a Jamaican, you know, in mountains, the rugged interior there’s not a electricity, not a lot of lights. Um, you know, just kind of a rural scary area. And, uh, and typically, uh, again, it’s, it’s seen at night and its characteristics are that it, uh, it has growing red eyes. The cry like lava tears. And so, um, and it’s, it’s said to, you usually hear it before you see it. Mm. And you hear it from a couple of things. One is, is to clanking the chains. Okay. So, uh, one, that’s one thing I love about the rolling calf is, it’s so visceral. At least to me. It’s sounds it’s smells. it’s, this giant beast, you know, a big bull, you know, you know, five times as big as I am. And, with glowing red eyes..

1:01:03
And then, and then you hear the clanking with rattling of chains.. And you hear, you know, the chains rattling from the distance. You’re like, oh shit. Right. What, what is that? And, and, and then you hear it. And, but the, one of the things that creeps me out about is because it has three legs, there’s something unnatural about it. Right. Right. I mean, a bull by itself is kind of scary. I mean, it’s a big, powerful animal. It could trample. You could gory you. Any, any big, you know, creature, a Moose, can be scary. Oh, that’s frightening. Yeah. Huge. So, any, any, but, but then there’s something in addition to that, in addition to that, there’s something that’s, that’s, this, this sort of scary, naturally terrifying about, about something that it’s, it has three legs. And so it doesn’t, so when you hear it, you don’t hear the natural gate, right. You, you, you hear a dog, you hear a horse, there’s a clock, clock, clock, you hear the, the typical, yeah, but not with this because… So you have this, this, this, this groaning, this, this powerful grunting of this, this creature trying to move normally, but it can’t.

PR: Yeah. That is pretty frightening. I think, and it’s a very interesting trope, you see, in a lot of, again, in a lot of horrors is that kind of unnatural movement, an unnatural sound thing, you know, in like Japanese horrors really big on, on very weird, creaky movements and things like that. American horrors all about the thumping and sliding and chains dragging and stuff.

1:02:41
So that, I can definitely see, you know, why that would be so particularly frightening. Yeah, I just, so this, so you, you know you’re out, usually by yourself, you hear this thing, you see the, you see the lava red eyes. Yeah. You hear this, this, this, this wheezing and sort of like, guttled grunts and breaths with labored breaths of this thing that could, is obviously something evil and scary. And yet it’s, it’s, it’s like almost vulnerable in a weird way. Could it, it doesn’t have all of its leg. So yeah, I, when I first heard it, I was like, oh, this is so scary. Yeah. And it creeped me the hell out. And, um, and so, anyway, so that there’s a couple of aspects of the rolling calf. One of them is it said to kill its victims by blowing its hot breath.. So, uh, there’s the, the, the notion of this, this, this, you know, stench from hell, right? I, the camel’s breath or a horse breath or something. Really scary, creepy, earthy, pungent breath from this animal that, again, this hot, you know, from depths of hell type thing. And, um, and so, it’s, anyway, I just, I was researching it and at one point when I was in Montego Bay, this is a couple years ago, I, uh, I was, I had some time to kill and I was, I was, I was actually not far from Rose Hall. And I was talking to a young woman there. And, uh, and I was like, yeah, you know, what can you, you know, I got to know her a little bit. I had some time to kill until the bus showed up. And, and I asked her, I said, so what, um, you know, do you have any, uh, do you have any duppy stories?

1:04:21
Uh, or any, any rolling calf stories? Yeah. And, uh, and she said, yeah, I’ve seen one. And my ear, like, uh, this is so cool. I’m like, really? So, uh, and I said, you, you saw rolling calf. You should said, yeah. And she raised her arms. And on her forearms, there were scars. On each of her forearms. And this is just getting more. I’m like, oh, this is, uh, I, I can’t wait like, I was like, what happened? She said, this is from the rolling calf. And, and she was probably, I don’t know, she, she’s maybe like 19 or 20 or something. As like, well, don’t keep me waiting… And, and, and, you know, I’m, I’ve, I’ve interviewed people who, who’ve claimed to see ghosts. I mean, that, that’s not unusual. But to have someone show me scars from a ghost encounter was, I was like, this is so cool. That is exceptional. So I’m talking to her. And I said, so what, what happened? She’s well, uh, she said, when I was a, when I was a young girl, she said about, I think she said like 10 or 12. And again, so this is probably like 10 years earlier. Uh, she said, you know, I grew up in the, in the, in the interior of Jamaica, uh, in very rural mountainous area. And she said out there, there’s, there’s certainly at the time, uh, in where she lived. There wasn’t a lot, there was no, there was a electricity, but there was no like street lights. Right. And, and frankly, I mean, that’s, I mean, I grew up in Corallis. It’s not far from here. Yeah. There’s no street lights.

1:05:51
There’s still no street lights. Right. So, so that, that by itself, for people who have spent all their lives in the city, that’s really unusual. Yeah. That’s not that weird to me. Yeah. Yeah. I grew up in a sort of rural area anyway. But, but certainly out where she grew up, where her house was, there was no street lights. There was, you know, a couple of houses here and there. And she told me that one night she was coming home. And it was late at night. And, uh, she was cutting through neighbor’s yard. And, um, on her way to her house. And it was, it was very, very dark. And she could do just see a couple burning lights here and there. And she heard the rolling calf. She heard the chains. And she got terrified. She heard this clanking of chains in the, in the darkness. And she grew up hearing stories of the rolling calf. That’s what that is. And so she, she freaked out and she started running. She was just terrified. Because she was sure that was a, she didn’t see any, you know, glowing red eyes. But she heard the chains. And for a lot of Jamaicans, that’s all you need. You don’t stick around.

PR: Hey, that’s very, very intelligent sense of, uh, self-preservation. Exactly.

BR: He’s like, we’re done here. I don’t, we’re good. Whatever it is, I don’t need to know. I’ve, I’ll figure it out later. We’re, we’re, we’re good here. So she, she’s running.

1:07:14
She’s, she’s freaking out. She’s, she’s genuinely, you know, believes it. The, the rolling calf is, is nearby. And she’s, she’s running and she trips on a fence. And she goes, uh, she, she goes forward, uh, into, into a barbed wire fence and a gravel. Uh, and, uh, and then she hears dogs barking. And so she’s sitting there, you know, her face, you, you, and gravel, her, her forearms are, are, are just scarred up. They’re bleeding. And a light turns on the porch where she is. And a woman comes out and, uh, and it’s, it’s a neighbor. Not not real nearby, but not too far away from where she lives. And she picked her up and she turned the light. And the chains were from dogs. Uh, there were dogs in the next yard. They were chained up. And that was her story. And, you know, she went up into the neighbors, you know, she neighbors house and she got bandaged up. Um, and she, you know, she went back to her house. But to this day, that’s her rolling calf story. And I love this story. It’s skeptical. It’s creepy. And, and, you know, she says, she had, I mean, when she showed me the scars on her forearms,

PR: That story has everything you could want from a person researching that because it’s got, you know, the belief and, and the fear and, and, you know, the scars, which are manifestations of what happened. And then, you know, kind of a moral to the story that involves just very, you know, skeptical, you know, mundane causes.

BR: Exactly. And, and I, and I asked her about it. And she said, yeah, she said, you know, when she was growing up, she said, she absolutely believed in him. There was no, she wasn’t joking. I mean, she genuinely feared it. And, and, and she was a little more circumspect about, I mean, again, by this time, she was 20. And she had moved to, to, uh, to, uh, Montego Bay, sort of, um, you know, a, more, more built up area. And so, yeah. So, you know, I, I didn’t really get into, you know, does she totally believe it now? But certainly she did as a kid. And so, I recently returned to Jamaica, uh, to hear more stories and, and, and get a chance to learn more about the rolling calf.

1:09:35
And, um, so I was asking more about, and so I, I talked to a couple of people in Nigrill, where I was staying. And, um, and, and again, just for just ordinary people, you know, just a taxi driver, you know, a carver, whatever. And, um, and I was asking, so what is, uh, you know, talking about the rolling calf. And again, their, their faces light up because I’m asking about some that most sort of don’t ask about, most people don’t even know about it. And I’m like, yeah, this is a really cool talking about it. So one of the first things I heard was that it’s a pig. Oh, not a bull. And I hadn’t, I hadn’t done extensive research on the rolling cap, but I, most of the references I’d seen were that it was a bowl. And of course the name is rolling calf. Not rolling piglets. Um, and so I was like, yeah, but it was important when I was talking to them, not to influence what, what they believed. I, I was, I was, I was very careful to say, you know, you know, tell me about the rolling calf. Not like, isn’t the rolling calf X because that’s leading question. Like, I don’t want to impose what I think. I want them to tell me what they think. So I was trying to be careful not to sort of contaminate their lore and their stories. Anyway, so it was interesting. And, and it was one of them was like, yeah, it’s a pig. And, and I found one person that said it was a horse. So it was interesting. Originally, I had been told it was a, it was a bull. And then several people there said it was a pig. And then also it was a horse. Um, and, and among the other things that I didn’t know, was that, um, apparently it f***s pigs. Did not know that I had not come across that piece of information. And, and it first of all, he was putting me on. Right. Because there were like three people there. And one of them said, well, you know, it f***s pigs. And, um, the other two, I could tell from the reaction, they were like, yeah, of course, I remember that.

1:11:38
So yeah, he wasn’t putting me on. It was, it’s common knowledge that the rolling calf f***s pigs. Okay. And so I’m like, interesting. So where I was, or where I was staying at this, at this place in Nigrill, there was a, a carver, a wood carver. And, um, you know, he, he does little figurines and, you know, the typical, you know, Rasta and Bob Marley stuff. Um, and a lot of plaques like, you know, like, you know, Fred and June, you know, love, you know, each other, you know, Jamaica vacation 2017. Oh, yeah. Um, but, and so I, I saw this carver, I’m like, why don’t I ask him to do me a rolling cap? And, uh, he was, and it was, again, it was another case of where I talked to him and he’s like, you like, you want a rolling calf? Like, yeah. And he’s like, he, I said, you know, it is right. He’s like, oh, yeah, yeah. And I said, well, you know, what is it? And he’s like, well, it’s a pig. And I had the, the, the usual descriptions, although, uh, he and other said it had four legs instead of three. Now, the three legged version is the one that I originally latched onto as Creepy as hell. But in this version, they said it was, it was, uh, it was a pig and they had four legs, which is a little less scary to me, but whatever. Anyway. So, um, so I was like, yeah, okay. Well, it’s just, you know, so I commissioned, uh, commissioned him to do a carving. And I said, you know, I said, I’m not going to tell you, I said, draw me what you think the rolling calf is like, I don’t, I don’t, just, I want you, when you heard it as a boy, right? I wanted a depiction from a Jamaican about the lore. He’s like, like, hey, fine no problem at all. So, um, so it, it, it took him well to, to, to, to do it. So I was going to, so I came out the next day. And, uh, some the next day, and, and it’s a great piece. I’ll have photos of it for, for listeners. Um, it’s really kind of a fun piece. But, uh, he showed it to me. He was really well done. And before I showed it to me, he said, well, here’s what happened because it’s, it’s a bull. And I said, well, I said, but yesterday you said it was a pig. And it was interesting. He said, well, I went online, and I looked it up, and he said, it’s a bull. And it was interesting because, you know, it was a case of where there was this, this Jamaican artist who was using the internet as sort of external validation. For what the story he had heard. And I mean, I wasn’t going to tell him what to, what to, what to draw. I mean, it was, it was his artwork. Um, but it was the sort of interesting, um, interesting aspect of sort of the, the homogenizing, uh, or sort of standardizing a folklore where you had this, this person who’s like, oh, I guess my understanding was wrong. Like, no, no, it wasn’t wrong. Just because you read something internet, doesn’t mean the internet’s right. It just, you know, with this, it was just sort of an interesting moment where the lore that I was seeing was being changed as I saw it. And it could be that, who knows, maybe, maybe, you know, maybe in five years when he’s telling his kids or someone else about the rolling calf, maybe he’ll describe a bull instead of the, the, the pig that he, that he grew up with because he’d been influenced by, by the internet

PR: and by proxy you. So it’s actually all your fault.

BR: Don’t see that. Anyway, but it was just interesting. So, but I, I love the piece and it was, it was cool to have sort of have a commission piece of art that reflects this, this, you know, this folkloric figure from Jamaican lore. And I, it was actually very hard to find anything on it. I mean, it was, it’s not that it’s unheard of. It’s just that outside of folklore journals, people don’t really write about it. I mean, I went to probably a half a dozen bookstores in, in Jamaica looking for books on Jamaican folklore. And there were a handful of them, some duppy stories and this and that, but almost nothing on the rolling calf. Well, there’s lots on the white witch of rose Hall of course. Yeah. But it was, it’s just, it’s not something that people really think to write about. It’s just, it’s, it’s oral traditions, right? It’s something that’s told by grandmothers and, you know, parents to kids to come home, you know, not stay out too late.

1:15:55
Um, anyway, it was, that was sort of the fun part of sort of getting a sort of fairly authentic look at what the rolling calf was. So anyway, there’s a, the Jamaicans have learned how to defend themselves against duppies, as I mentioned before. And one way that you, you, you escape a rolling calf in particular is if you hear the chains, you run to the nearest crossroads as fast as you can, and you hide. And in this case, the cross apparently doesn’t really represent 10 as it did with the more generalized duppy lore, but the, but the counting thing, right? Instead, the idea is that that’ll get confused because it won’t know which way you went. So that’s all that makes it right.

PR: Very logical.

BR: And of course, you know, one could, you know, presumably I’d have a easier time outrunning a free-legged bull or pig than a four-legged one in an event. They probably were outrunning me anyway. But, but yeah, this, this notion that, you know, you go to crossroads and then, and then, you hide and it doesn’t know which, which way to go. And again, this, this goes back to, to vampire lore. I mean, there’s lots of stories about, about going to crosses and crossroads and the, the symbology of a crossroads and going in different locations and stuff. So, yeah. Another way that you can avoid, the rolling calf is to, is to use tobacco seeds, either keep it in your pocket or, or sprinkled around a house might ward off the, the rolling calf.

PR: So, oh wow, that’s a little hard to come by in the States. So, good thing I haven’t heard of them being around here.

BR: No creepy things, but, um, so that’s sort of the rolling calf story. Celestia Ward, who is, of course, a content producer for the show. She and I created a series of, what we call creature cards. It’s a series of, of greeting cards, ranging from the big foot to the Loch Ness Monster. And she illustrated them and we’ll have a, we’ll have a, a picture of them on the, on the website. But, what are the cool things about it is that she did rolling calf.

PR: That was, that’s actually one of my very favorite ones. I have the full set everyone. So, be sure to collect yours. But, uh, it’s, uh, yeah, that’s an awesome illustration. And that was literally my first exposure to the rolling calf.

1:18:12
Was that card.

BR: Oh, cool. Yeah. Yeah. It was a fun series. We, uh, she and I did that, um, about six or seven months ago. And the idea of sort of to create a sort of cryptosvology, uh, set of cards that were sort of skeptical and, and folkloric informed. Uh, and so she, she did the illustrations with input from me. And I, I wrote, uh, the, the copy on the back, which is talking about the, the lore with input from her. And so it’s a, it’s kind of a fun series. I’m not, not, not promoting the hell out of it. But if anyone interested, uh, we, they are available.

PR: Yeah. We’ll put, uh, we’ll put a link and some information up on the website as well as pictures of, of the full series led with the rolling calf seeking kind of, kind of get an idea of, uh, of what, uh, Celestia’s, you know, vision of it ended up being, which is a very cool illustration and, and has quite a menacing look to it. It’s pretty creepy.

BR: Yeah. So, uh, while I was in Jamaica looking into Duppy research and, and, and Duppies, uh, I was looking for some sort of artistic depiction, a carving, whatever else. And in fact, I, I found at a, at a local craft market, there was a guy, who, uh, had a carved, uh, what he, what he called the Duppy of the Moon. Oh, okay. And it was really cool. And I just walked in there. And, uh, again, it was, it’s mostly like, you know, fish and swordfish and sort of classic, you know, tourist schlock. But there was a really cool, Duppy creepy carving. Uh, we’ll, I’ll, uh, I’ll share some photos of it on, uh, for, for, our, our supporters on the, on the sight and stuff. But yeah, I met the guy and the, the, and, you know, he, I have a photo of him and his, his carving I asked about, you know, what represented. And it has these really hollowed out eyes. And say, this is the open mouth and this really elongated neck. And it’s, it’s a pretty creepy, uh, creepy little, uh, wooden carving. Very cool. And, uh, it is a fascinating carver. Um, uh, his name was Robert.

1:20:09
And I talked to him a bit and he had, uh, he’d been injured in a motorcycle accident. Um, I think about 15, 20 years ago. And, uh, he showed me his knees, which were all scarred up. And, uh, apparently he was riding a motorcycle somewhere in Kingston or, Montego Bay. And just hit by a car and, you know, there you go. And, um, and so that’s because he was injured, he couldn’t do what he was doing before. I think it was a laborer. And so he ended up doing carvings. And that’s how he got into doing the, doing the carvings at the, the craft shop. It’s kind of a fun little story. So I met him and, I have a photo of him and, uh, and the Duppy of The Moon. So I have that.

BR: As a special thank you to our supporters and our Patreon supporters. I, um, well, I shouldn’t say this. Are we recording this?

PR: Oh, yeah. No, it’s not rolling. Don’t worry. You’re off the record.

BR: Okay. Good. We’ll just cut this part, right? I smuggled back or I should say I brought back, uh, 10 bags of Duffy repellent, uh, from the, uh, the town of Negrill Jamaica. Uh, it was, uh, it’s a yellow sulfur. And I have a receipt for it. So it’s totally legit. Uh, how I got through customs is not clear to me, but I’m, I somehow did. And, um, I will be happy to, uh, send a small bag of genuine Jamaican Duffy repellent, um, uh, yellow sulfur to the first 10, uh, 10 supporters, including we already have several. And, uh, if you want to join up, you can get it now.

1:21:58
PR: So awesome. So how’s the time to, you get a, I mean, who, who wants Duppies in their life?

BR: Exactly.

PR: So, and this is, this is really the best way to, uh, to, you know, get a leg up on them when they inevitably start invading your life.

BR: And here, here’s my personal guarantee. If upon receiving this Duppy repellent and you’re holding on to, you have to follow instructions, of course. If even after all that, you are in fact plagued by Duppies, I promise you, I will investigate and figure out what’s going on and rid you of Duppies. I make that’s all I’m promised to you. So, uh, sign up, uh, help us support us. We appreciate it and make sure that we have your mailing address for the, uh, the Duppy repellent, uh, yellow sulfur from Jamaica.

PR: Awesome. And, uh, when you pledge on Patreon, there will be a form, uh, where you’ll fill out your, your mailing address. So, uh, that, that will be, uh, given to us as soon as you sign up. So, uh, hurry while they last.

PR: So, that’s all for this week folks. Um, be sure to tune in next week. We’re going to be talking about, uh, UFOs and intelligent life in the universe and all that fun stuff right here from our, uh, our bunker in northern New Mexico.

BR: That’s right. Only, uh, only, uh, only, uh, what, a three-hour drive from Roswell.

PR: Yeah. Yeah. We’re only three hours from Roswell. So, theoretically, if anything crashed any time soon, we could see it up in the sky.

BR: Well, keep in mind, I mean, here in, here in New Mexico, you know, there’s quite a bit of lore, not, not just Roswell. There’s also the, the Aztec UFO crash, which I sure I wrote about in my, in my book, The Mysterious New Mexico and, of course, Dave Thomas, the local skeptic and physicist, um, has written a lot about that. And there’s also the, you know, about the underground base of Dulce, right? No, I don’t. Yeah. We’ll, we’ll talk about that. All right. That sounds fun.

PR: Yeah. So, that’s what you have to look forward to next week.

1:24:08
And, uh, be sure to, uh, check out our website, uh, squaringthestrange.com. Go to our Patreon, patreon.com forward slash squaring the strange, uh, we are on Instagram at squaringthestrange and Twitter, squaring the strange. So, uh, definitely check us out. Um, and again, uh, patrons on Patreon will be getting some, uh, bonuses, uh, especially, uh, you know, that, uh, duppy repellent. That’s a pretty sweet bonus. You don’t get that from… I don’t think you can order that from Jamaica.

BR: So you can’t, I’m lucky to have gotten that out of Jamaica.

PR: So, uh, someone thinking you were a heroin mule or something.

BR: Well, they weren’t up my, but maybe next time.

PR: Well, at least now we know how we can do it if we need to.

BR: But, uh, yeah. And I just want to, you know, again, send a, a thanks and a shout out to our supporters and also, uh, to our content producer Celestia Ward for her, her help on that and, uh, and all our supporters and friends and fans.

PR: Yeah. And, uh, of course, our, our usual thank you to, uh, Amy Freshhauer-Kelley, who is our sponsor level patron, um, who, who has, uh, enabled us to bring you this show every week. So thank you, guys. Stay tuned for next week. We’re out.

BR: Bye-bye.